1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

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1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Duggerman
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How does a peaking Floyd Patterson do against the old 137 year-old Joe Louis who fought Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano? Can Floyd overwhelm him with his speed or is Joe still physical enough to pull it off?
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

George Jefferson
I have no faith in Floyd's chinny chin chin. And old Louis still had that crushing power. This is a recipe for disaster if you're Floyd.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Shane
George Jefferson wrote
I have no faith in Floyd's chinny chin chin. And old Louis still had that crushing power. This is a recipe for disaster if you're Floyd.
I dunno, bud. If Floyd uses his speed to dart in and out he could get an easy decision.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

RICKY TAN
Shane wrote
George Jefferson wrote
I have no faith in Floyd's chinny chin chin. And old Louis still had that crushing power. This is a recipe for disaster if you're Floyd.
I dunno, bud. If Floyd uses his speed to dart in and out he could get an easy decision.
The moment Joe lands his first significant punch, Floyd loses confidence and it all goes to hell for him. I believe Joe was still a great finisher even at this late stage of his career. He just never hurt Charles or Marciano enough to get in position to get them out of there.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Shane
The Governor wrote
The moment Joe lands his first significant punch, Floyd loses confidence and it all goes to hell for him. I believe Joe was still a great finisher even at this late stage of his career. He just never hurt Charles or Marciano enough to get in position to get them out of there.
I disagree about old Joe being a great finisher. Look at his last couple fights. Stoppage wins were now rare. And these guys were considered "puncher's padding" at best.



His accuracy was now off too. Punches that would have landed flush in his prime were now missing the mark. You're right that he might hit and stun Floyd but following up with those "Joe Louis Specials" would be a miracle. Joe could still stop Floyd with a one punch shot but even that would be hard to do, as Floyd was a hard target to pinpoint because of his speed. Speed so great, in fact, that it may be Louis who ends up on the floor here.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

RICKY TAN
Shane wrote
 Speed so great, in fact, that it may be Louis who ends up on the floor here.
Are you saying that Floyd would stop Louis? I don't see that happening. A knockdown or two maybe. If Walcott could do it so could Floyd and Floyd was more explosive especially with the leaping left hook.

I see it this way: Floyd does well early on as Joe tries to adjust and land his jab. Floyd fights a similar fight that Ezzard Charles did, brawling and boxing. Louis struggles to catch him but doesn't chase him and patiently waits. As you say, it is possible Floyd knocks him down, as he has far superior speed than Louis and Louis doesn't have the reflexes anymore to defend against such a speedy attack.

Eventually, maybe around round 4 or 5, Joe lands his first big punch and Floyd freezes up and is never the same. As was the case in the Liston fights, he now expects to be knocked out and waits for it. Louis pounces on him with rights and lefts. Floyd hits the canvas in a daze and is counted out.

I'm not arguing with your statement that Louis was old and lacking his accuracy. But it's Floyd's weak mental makeup that would ensure his loss here.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Sivul
Did Ingemar Johanson hit as hard as Joe Louis? We saw him knock Floyd down seven times in one round and even in his late '30s Joe could still punch and had those classic Joe Louis ring smarts and fundamentals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOs896uunsM

Let's compare Floyd to similar guys Louis fought in his late '30s. Walcott ran all night in two fights but was knocked out almost promptly when he was finally caught. Ezzard Charles was tough as nails. Floyd didn't have the footwork to stay away all night like Walcott and lacked Ezzard's toughness. Floyd wouldn't give himself a chance to win this one. What makes it worse is Joe had the jab to offset Floyd's rhythm.

Perhaps Joe's bad timing would allow Floyd to smash him with a good gazelle punch and get the upper hand briefly but I can't see Floyd winning this fight. Young Joe Louis takes him apart as fast as Liston or faster. Old Joe Louis would have shaky moments but eventually win by TKO in the middle rounds probably.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Duggerman
Administrator
Joe lost a significant amount of power by this point, though. He still packed a big blow at times. After all, he hurt Rocky and Ezzard with some great shots on occasion. But Rocky Marciano said Joe's right hand felt like "nothing."

 "I knew I was going to catch him with a left hook," Rocky explained. "He was dropping his right." Rocky took some punishment,too, and he showed it. His nose was bleeding badly and there were cuts over and under both his eyes. "Joe's left jabs," he explained.  "What surprised me was that Joe didn't have much of a right. They told me he had lost some of his power, but I didn't expect nothing. That's what his right
hand was - nothing."
http://www.boxinggyms.com/news/marciano_louis1951/marciano_louis1951.htm


If Joe were to hurt Patterson it would be with the left hook or jab. I think Floyd had a good enough chin to survive if he got blasted by this version of Louis. Ingemar Johanson was a sharper puncher than old Louis, particularly with the right hand, which is what he used to destroy Patterson in that first fight.

After thinking this through, I pick Patterson by decision, though a knockout is possible.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

RICKY TAN
Just realizing Joe's vaunted reputation as a legendary devastating knockout puncher would traumatize Floyd long before the fight even happens. He'd be waiting for that first punch to set the tone and start the beginning of the end. Once he feels that, he would mentally submit to the Brown Bomber and accept defeat. Like a shark smelling blood, Louis would promptly devastate him right then and there, declining skills or not.

Floyd didn't have a strong chin. But it's not as bad as percieved. After all he normally got up and had to be put down repeatedly. It's his lack of mental toughness I'm concerned about here. He'd be terrified just seeing Joe Louis (old or not) staring at him from across the ring. And then when Joe crushes him with that first punch...
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

George Jefferson
The Governor wrote
Just realizing Joe's vaunted reputation as a legendary devastating knockout puncher would traumatize Floyd long before the fight even happens.
Did you know Floyd ducked Joe Frazier? Floyd wanted nothing to do with punchers. We know that by him ducking Liston for 5 years and avoiding Joe Frazier completely. He and Cus knew his weaknesses and purposely kept him from real threats. When you think about it, even though he was old, Joe Louis was still the favorite going into the fights with Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano. Joe's hard hitting repuation overshadowed his age at this time.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Zorro
Floyd wins a decision but not without some scary moments. Joe might score a knockdown but no way does he keep Floyd on the floor. His days of being the best finisher of all time were long over by this point. In '48 he would have murdered Patterson. But those skills were gone by the '50s.

I don't see Floyd winning by knockout either. Could he drop Joe with the gazelle punch? Yes. But even at this stage of Louis' career he had a great chin. You would need Marciano-eqsue power to stop Joe at this time.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

MAGUIRE
Once again you guys come up with an intensely thought-out discussion on a fantasy bout I would have never thought of.

I'll cut it short. Louis was no match for a top tier heavyweight at the age of 37. If we're talking PEAK Patterson here, then old Louis is getting beat up pretty bad...
 photo lennox-hair_3476731_GIFSoupcom_zps919d29c7.gif
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

49-0
MAGUIRE wrote

I'll cut it short. Louis was no match for a top tier heavyweight at the age of 37.
Yes, and the numbers Shane posted earlier in the thread proves that. It was rare to last bell to bell with the Brown Bomber in his prime. Most of his fights ended by knockout. But by the end of his career he was getting sloppy decision wins over no-name opponents. His knockout power was slippin' because he lost that great sense of timing and hand speed.

He was still a good boxer at that age. He displayed a good jab versus Marciano for example. But if he'd fought on he'd be nothing more than a stepping stone for top level heavies.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Shane
In reply to this post by RICKY TAN
The Governor wrote
Shane wrote
 Speed so great, in fact, that it may be Louis who ends up on the floor here.
Are you saying that Floyd would stop Louis? I don't see that happening. A knockdown or two maybe. If Walcott could do it so could Floyd and Floyd was more explosive especially with the leaping left hook.

I see it this way: Floyd does well early on as Joe tries to adjust and land his jab. Floyd fights a similar fight that Ezzard Charles did, brawling and boxing. Louis struggles to catch him but doesn't chase him and patiently waits. As you say, it is possible Floyd knocks him down, as he has far superior speed than Louis and Louis doesn't have the reflexes anymore to defend against such a speedy attack.

Eventually, maybe around round 4 or 5, Joe lands his first big punch and Floyd freezes up and is never the same. As was the case in the Liston fights, he now expects to be knocked out and waits for it. Louis pounces on him with rights and lefts. Floyd hits the canvas in a daze and is counted out.

I'm not arguing with your statement that Louis was old and lacking his accuracy. But it's Floyd's weak mental makeup that would ensure his loss here.
Hey. It's certainly possible that Floyd knocks old Louis out. I would personally bet on Floyd getting a decision win, but Floyd generated great speed behind his punch. Even in Joe's prime it's possible that Floyd socks him with a good one here or there. Floyd had quicker hands than Louis.

Then consider this also. Joe had major problems with Arturo Godoy because he crouched at him the way Floyd would. Floyd had a better dip, roll and bob and weave than Godoy. Joe eventually straightened out Godoy with uppercuts but this is old Louis we're talking about in this thread. Those uppercuts wouldn't be landing flush anymore. Floyd would be able to hit Louis easy without getting much in return.

Who else did Joe fight who was similar to Patterson? Ezzard Charles? First off Joe is OLD here so any peak ATG would take him. Secondly, Patterson is a mixture of Godoy (crouching) and Charles (counterpunching/slugging). He's a combination of two guys who gave Joe hell.

I'd even back Michael Spinks to beat this version of Louis.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

It's Dale
Joe's fight plan would still beat Patterson. He'd plant his feet and keep the jab in Patterson's face. Just as Patterson opens up a bit to leap in with the left hook Joe would land the straight right and put Patterson down. It's one of many ways Joe dealt with swarmers. It's also the way Ingemar Johanson beat Patterson. You can time Patterson with a straight right.

I know that this is "137 year-old Joe Louis" as Eddie Murphy would say. But Joe was still lethal. In fact he attempted said strategy against Marciano but couldn't hold him off. (NO ONE could hold Marciano off!) But the jab-straight right combination would keep Patterson off balance and eventually stop him.

And we all know how Patterson mentally packs it in when he's hurt. Louis KO 5. (Prime Louis does it within a round)

Shane wrote
I'd even back Michael Spinks to beat this version of Louis.
Michael Spinks would trouble Louis even in his prime!!! Louis would have problems catching him as Larry Holmes did. But like Tyson, Louis packed the dynamite to destroy him when he lands. It'd be an awkward fight until Louis catches him, but he would sooner or later.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Duggerman
Administrator
This post was updated on .
It's Dale wrote
Joe's fight plan would still beat Patterson. He'd plant his feet and keep the jab in Patterson's face. Just as Patterson opens up a bit to leap in with the left hook Joe would land the straight right and put Patterson down. It's one of many ways Joe dealt with swarmers. It's also the way Ingemar Johanson beat Patterson. You can time Patterson with a straight right.

I know that this is "137 year-old Joe Louis" as Eddie Murphy would say. But Joe was still lethal. In fact he attempted said strategy against Marciano but couldn't hold him off. (NO ONE could hold Marciano off!) But the jab-straight right combination would keep Patterson off balance and eventually stop him.

And we all know how Patterson mentally packs it in when he's hurt. Louis KO 5. (Prime Louis does it within a round)
The straight right would be a non-factor. Joe's timing was shot and as Marciano said, "his right hand was nothing."

I posted scans from Louis' memoirs about the fights with Charles and Marciano and he went into great detail on how his body just couldn't do what he commanded it to. The reflexes were gone.

Duggerman wrote
As promised, here is a scan of Louis' memories of the fight. It's funny to hear Joe refer to himself as a "shithead." Haha! Scroll to the left at the bottom of the post to read the scan in full.

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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Left Hook From Hell...
Come on, guys. Joe was way too damn old. Floyd would beat him to the punch in every exchange. Joe's timing was awful and Floyd was lightning quick and nearly always landed right on the button with proper snap and explosive accuracy.

Duggerman wrote
Joe looks like an old fat preacher training his young ward.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Shogun of Harlem
Left Hook From Hell... wrote
Come on, guys. Joe was way too damn old. Floyd would beat him to the punch in every exchange. Joe's timing was awful and Floyd was lightning quick and nearly always landed right on the button with proper snap and explosive accuracy.

Joe looks like an old fat preacher training his young ward.
You're right. Floyd would have it sewn up, unless he finds himself terrified of Joe. If that happens he gets KO'd because he expects to be KO'd. But I don't think he would fear an old Louis. I think he takes him in 5, similar to Archie Moore.
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Malik Wright
I see this precisely the way I see Louis v. Tyson. Floyd uses that peekaboo to confuse Louis and sends him crashing to the mat with those vicous hooks and uppercuts. Speed kills, and Louis didn't have it anymore. But young Patterson did.
Malik El Debarge Wright
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Re: 1950-51 Joe Louis v. Peak Floyd Patterson

Phantom Punch
I had a lot to chew on here. But my thoughts are that Floyd wins by knockout. Two reasons. If Ezzard Charles could beat this version of Louis why couldn't Floyd? Floyd fought similar to Charles in a way. They were both slick and mixed it up; brawling and boxing.

But really, this is more of a pick against Louis than a pick for Floyd. The old Brown Bomber just didn't have it anymore.
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