Ali-Frazier 2

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Ali-Frazier 2

Shane
AJ talked about this fight in another thread. Muhammad did an assload of holding but a win is a win. A win is a win. It wasn't very pretty but thats the way you handle a swarmer like Joe Frazier. When he gets close, tie him up and frustrate him. Ugly fight to watch all the same, but Muhammad didn't allow Joe to unleash his thunder and controlled everything.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Urban Legend
Hell, I disagree. I would have absolutely scored that fight for Joe Frazier. He tried to make a fight of it but Muhammad preferred to hug. The judges scored Mike Tyson as the winner against Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green, but when Muhammad Ali does those same cowardly antics he gets scored the winner? Bullshit. Muhammad Ali can't slug with Frazier and Frazier doesn't stay outside where he can outbox him. Other than holding Joe around the neck, Muhammad Ali had no answers to Joe's style.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

BAD INTENTIONS
Urban Legend wrote
 The judges scored Mike Tyson as the winner against Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green, but when Muhammad Ali does those same cowardly antics he gets scored the winner? Bullshit.
Eh. All those fools did against Mike was run and hold. They didn't throw many punches either. Muhammad used those same tactics but he actually threw punches. He jabbed and threw a lot of flurries. Those fast flurries and jabs are points, people. All Joe could do was lunge in with a wild left hook. Once he missed or got inside, Ali held him. I agree that it was an ugly fight to watch but Muhammad controlled Joe Frazier and threw a lot of punches, so you can't compare Ali's performance to Smith and Greeen.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

49-0
In reply to this post by Shane
Redemption wrote
thats the way you handle a swarmer like Joe Frazier. When he gets close, tie him up and frustrate him.
No. The way to handle a swarmer is to keep a jab in his face and prevent him from getting close and doing damage. If he gets under your jab and up close, you throw the uppercut. Watch Lennox Lewis take apart Mike Tyson and you'll see the correct way for a tall boxer to frustrate a swarmer/crowder.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Duggerman
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49-0 wrote
Redemption wrote
thats the way you handle a swarmer like Joe Frazier. When he gets close, tie him up and frustrate him.
No. The way to handle a swarmer is to keep a jab in his face and prevent him from getting close and doing damage. If he gets under your jab and up close, you throw the uppercut. Watch Lennox Lewis take apart Mike Tyson and you'll see the correct way for a tall boxer to frustrate a swarmer/crowder.
I agree. I understand why they would clinch. After all, you break the swarmer's momentum when you clinch him. You stop him from attacking, and after the ref breaks the clinch, the swarmer has to restart. But I think it should be illegal. Muhammad Ali was the first heavyweight champion to do a lot of clinching. If you notice, you didn't see a lot of clinching during earlier eras.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

BAD INTENTIONS
Duggerman wrote
Muhammad Ali was the first heavyweight champion to do a lot of clinching. If you notice, you didn't see a lot of clinching during earlier eras.
Not entirely true. I've seen Jack Johnson do a lot of clinching and rough housing. But I see where you're coming from. It was Muhammad that used clinches as a constant way to frustrate his rivals when they got inside. It was rare to see earlier champs like Demspey, Marciano or Louis clinching.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

GatorPurify
BAD INTENTIONS wrote
Duggerman wrote
Muhammad Ali was the first heavyweight champion to do a lot of clinching. If you notice, you didn't see a lot of clinching during earlier eras.
Not entirely true. I've seen Jack Johnson do a lot of clinching and rough housing. But I see where you're coming from. It was Muhammad that used clinches as a constant way to frustrate his rivals when they got inside. It was rare to see earlier champs like Demspey, Marciano or Louis clinching.
Yeah Joe's trainers were pissed about this fight because Ali was allowed to hold behind the head. Clinching is one thing but holding behind the head is illegal, but Ali is Ali so you have to deal with it. Quiet as kept in the Thrilla in Manilla Ali did a lot of holding behind the head but the ref didn't take away points like he should have.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Evolution
At this point Muhammad was in his 30s and his stamina was not what it used to be. He tamed Frazier by clinching him and rested during the clinches.

Muhammad did what he had to do to keep Joe under control and was always in control. Joe was on his way to being stopped in the second round but referee Tony Perez erronously called for the bell. I think Joe was about to be stopped.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Entaowed
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

precious
Enter a debate with Ali Fans & call it cheating the backlash is frightening so you are honest & brave. This seems to me deep down they know it's the truth but defend it with the usual nonsense. In the 2nd fight Ali was frightened of it going the same way as the first hence the tactic over 130 clinches which Perez didn't penalize at all It was literally handcuffing Joe every time he got close
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Duggerman
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precious wrote
Enter a debate with Ali Fans & call it cheating the backlash is frightening so you are honest & brave. This seems to me deep down they know it's the truth but defend it with the usual nonsense. In the 2nd fight Ali was frightened of it going the same way as the first hence the tactic over 130 clinches which Perez didn't penalize at all It was literally handcuffing Joe every time he got close
That's one thing I like about this place and commend you guys for...the posters here are really open and the majority of people here don't drink the Muhammad Ali kool-aid. I love Ali as much as the next guy but he wasn't perfect the way hardcore fans say he was. I personally believe Mike Tyson was the best fighter head to head but he had his flaws as well. Every boxer had flaws that could be exposed and capitalized on by someone else.

In the rematch with Frazier Ali did all he could to limit the action and get a win.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

precious
I agree, Its become fashionable to bash Tyson these days. His fall from grace was probably self inflicted but I still believe he was an amazing fighter with great ability, he would have been a handful against any heavyweight in history. Just my opinion
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Hit Em' Hard
In reply to this post by Evolution
Evolution wrote
At this point Muhammad was in his 30s and his stamina was not what it used to be. He tamed Frazier by clinching him and rested during the clinches.

Muhammad did what he had to do to keep Joe under control and was always in control. Joe was on his way to being stopped in the second round but referee Tony Perez erronously called for the bell. I think Joe was about to be stopped.
And that grinds my gears. Tony Perez was a terrible referree for this fight. He allowed Muhammad to hold as he wished and when it looked like Frazier was ready to go in the second round, he made a bogus call and sent both fighters to their corner before Muhammad could finish him. I think Frazier was on his way to being knocked out.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

BAD INTENTIONS
In reply to this post by BAD INTENTIONS
I guess I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote
Urban Legend wrote
 The judges scored Mike Tyson as the winner against Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green, but when Muhammad Ali does those same cowardly antics he gets scored the winner? Bullshit.
Eh. All those fools did against Mike was run and hold. They didn't throw many punches either. Muhammad used those same tactics but he actually threw punches. He jabbed and threw a lot of flurries. Those fast flurries and jabs are points, people. All Joe could do was lunge in with a wild left hook. Once he missed or got inside, Ali held him. I agree that it was an ugly fight to watch but Muhammad controlled Joe Frazier and threw a lot of punches, so you can't compare Ali's performance to Smith and Greeen.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Entaowed
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Duggerman
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In both fights, the swarmer wasn't allowed to get busy because of constant clinching. It isn't fair and the offending clinchers should have been warned or DQ'd.

Had Ali not been allowed to clinch, that fight would have turned out different. Ali wasn't allowed to clinch in the first and third fights. As a result, Frazier was able to land his shots and make a fight out of it.

In my book Frazier deserved the win because while he tried like hell to force the action, all Ali did was limit it.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Entaowed
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Duggerman
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We'll have to agree to disagree. Ali shouldn't have gotten away with all that holding. And this was also around the time when Ali's popularity gave him gift decisions over other guys like Norton, Young, Shavers, etc. It bothers me that people were so in love with him that they allowed him to cheat. You'd never see Joe Louis resorting to such tactics.

Everything about this match was terrible, but I put most of the blame on the ref. When it looked like Ali had Frazier finished in the second round, Tony Perez called for the bell. And he let Ali hold all night. Ridiculous.
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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

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Re: Ali-Frazier 2

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
  But that does not address my point, & that of others above like Bad Intentions.  Which is that the fight was not like Tyson vs. Green in who dominated, only the unfortunate love fest element.  In that case Tyson landed many more punches & power shots.  Ali was more busy than Frazier & clearly won more rounds.  And also Frazier got the benefit of a poor decision after being rocked that helped, & could have saved him.

On the other note, Ali did get gift decisions.  Norton & Young.  I am not at all sure about Shavers deserving the decision, he had his worst fight until then but beat Doug Jones, who else do you think he got a gift against?

Most long term champions get at least one gift or questionable call, sometimes it is on the way up, like Rocky against Ted Lowry, & some say LeStarza 1.  Holmes got some close calls, likely lost against Carl "The Truth" Williams.  You have named Tyson-Tillis.  Joe Louis likely lost a fight against Jersey Joe Walcott.  Not that these guys were at fault for the favoritism.
I just don't see the fight that way. To me it was Frazier who landed more shots. I really wish they had Compubox stats back then to prove this.

Ali landed some "impressive" pittypat flurries that didn't mean anything but the crowd went wild. Frazier commented on that in his book. I'm sorry but I don't count those sissy flurries in my scoring. They were ineffective and only for show. There are other things Ali did to manipulate the judges too, like throwing those flurries at the end of the round so the judges would remember it, helping him to steal the round. Sugar Ray Leonard and Evander Holyfield later adopted this technique as well.

Frazier landed more punches and they were the more effective shots. When Frazier landed a hook, everyone knew it.

When I score a fight, it goes like this. I tend to credit who forces the action (Frazier) and who lands more punches (Frazier). I also score for ring generalship, which goes to Ali in this case, but ONLY because he tamed Frazier by constantly clinching.

To compare this to the Tillis-Tyson fight, Tyson didn't force the action the whole fight. He got frustrated and eventually quit attacking. Tillis landed more punches, looked great, and Tyson just couldn't keep up with him and around round 7 just refused to try. To me, Tillis should be the winner. But everyone scores fights differently.

And you're right about most champs having questionable calls but I guarantee you that no one had more gift decisions than Ali. The fight with Shavers could have gone either way, but I listen with an open ear to people that say Shavers should have won. Ali only looked good in spurts - but Shavers pressed throughout.
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