Better Finisher? (Tyson or Louis)

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Better Finisher? (Tyson or Louis)

Duggerman
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These two are often considered the best finishers among the heavyweights. Who was the better finisher?
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Re: Best Finisher?

Hit Em' Hard
The best finisher has to be Iron Mike or The Brown Bomber but I pick Joe Louis. No one ever escaped Louis when he had them hurt. Ever. A few guys managed to survive Tyson when they looked finished, case in point Douglas, Ruddock, Danny Williams, Tillis and several others. I'm just saying when Tyson had you hurt you had a prayer of a chance of surviving the round and going the distance. With Louis, it's over right then and there.

Good job at giving Lennox Lewis is props. The way he finished Golota, Botha and Grant early was nothing short of spectacular.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Zombies Ate Me
In reply to this post by Duggerman
With all due respect to Joe Frazier, I don't see him being a better finisher than Marciano. Joe's left hook destroyed smaller heavyweights like Foster and Ellis but given his inability to finish bigger opponents when he hurt them (Bonavena, Foreman, Ali, etc) I can't give him the nod.

People say Frazier could have finished Ali in round 11 of the FOTC but given his inability to finish Ali after flooring him in round 15 or stopping him in Manilla, I don't think Joe could ever knock Ali out. Frazier did finish Buster Mathis. The knockout blow was legit but Mathis was also tired, beaten and horribly out of shape. The blow just took him out after he got beat like a pinata for 11 rounds. Quarry and Chuvalo were not in condition to continue. Those were TKO losses.

Marciano finished Walcott with one shot and pulled off another emergency stoppage in the Ezzard Charles rematch. And it was one hell of a punch he stopped Carmine Vingo with. It put him in a coma!

I think Tyson and Louis were the best finishers in their primes but Tyson was noticeably better. Could Joe Louis knock Trevor Berbrick down THREE times with a single left hook?
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Re: Best Finisher?

49-0
Zombies Ate Me wrote
With all due respect to Joe Frazier, I don't see him being a better finisher than Marciano. Joe's left hook destroyed smaller heavyweights like Foster and Ellis but given his inability to finish bigger opponents when he hurt them (Bonavena, Foreman, Ali, etc) I can't give him the nod.

People say Frazier could have finished Ali in round 11 of the FOTC but given his inability to finish Ali after flooring him in round 15 or stopping him in Manilla, I don't think Joe could ever knock Ali out. Frazier did finish Buster Mathis. The knockout blow was legit but Mathis was also tired, beaten and horribly out of shape. The blow just took him out after he got beat like a pinata for 11 rounds. Quarry and Chuvalo were not in condition to continue. Those were TKO losses.

Marciano finished Walcott with one shot and pulled off another emergency stoppage in the Ezzard Charles rematch. And it was one hell of a punch he stopped Carmine Vingo with. It put him in a coma!

I think Tyson and Louis were the best finishers in their primes but Tyson was noticeably better. Could Joe Louis knock Trevor Berbrick down THREE times with a single left hook?
I agree with most of this. I think Dempsey was overrated as a finisher too. He couldn't finish Willard! He beat the unholy f**k out of him but couldn't put him away. Willard quit on his stool. No knockout.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Zorro
49-0 wrote
I think Dempsey was overrated as a finisher too. He couldn't finish Willard! He beat the unholy f**k out of him but couldn't put him away. Willard quit on his stool. No knockout.
Yes. Had Rocky landed flush, Willard would have been knocked out cold. But it would have taken Rocky a bit longer to warm up into the fight and land the magic punch. This makes Rocky the better finisher.

And this ties into what I was going to comment about Louis and Tyson. Look at their respective records:

Mike Tyson - Wins 50(44) Losses 6(5)
79% of overall fights won by KO and 63% of overall fights won inside 4 rounds.

Joe Louis - Wins 69(55) Losses 3(2)
76% of overall fights won by KO and 47% of overall fights won inside 4 rounds.

From the numbers Tyson finished 'em earlier. But history also shows that once Louis had 'em on the go he finished 'em very efficiently. Louis was the better finisher in that he determined the moment of his opponents' demise more precisely.

Tyson went after his opponent until he finished them while Louis constructed their demise when he chose to, making him more of a pure finisher. So between the two, I go with Louis. Best finisher of all time. Tyson is second.

Muhammad Ali set up good finishes too. Look at the Rumble In The Jungle. He went in there with a plan and executed it perfectly. He waited for the precise time to finish George and spent 8 rounds setting it up. Ali is not the best finisher of all time but worth a mention.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Duggerman
Administrator
In reply to this post by Zombies Ate Me
Zombies Ate Me wrote
People say Frazier could have finished Ali in round 11 of the FOTC but given his inability to finish Ali after flooring him in round 15 or stopping him in Manilla, I don't think Joe could ever knock Ali out. Frazier did finish Buster Mathis. The knockout blow was legit but Mathis was also tired, beaten and horribly out of shape. The blow just took him out after he got beat like a pinata for 11 rounds. Quarry and Chuvalo were not in condition to continue. Those were TKO losses.

Marciano finished Walcott with one shot and pulled off another emergency stoppage in the Ezzard Charles rematch. And it was one hell of a punch he stopped Carmine Vingo with. It put him in a coma!
Well, I think Frazier may have finished Ali in the 11th Round. The man's legs turned into spaghetti. If the ropes hadn't caught Ali, he would have been knocked out, imo. I've never seen him more hurt than that; a possible exception being the first Henry Cooper fight. Frazier dropped Ali in Round 15 but said in his autobiography that he was too exhausted to finish him. If you watch the round you'll see truth to that; Frazier was tired and sluggish by that point, and Ali was content to smother Joe by clinching in order to survive.

I agree with you about the Buster Mathis knockout, but Buster also said that that punch was the hardest punch he ever took in his life. He didn't see it coming. Frazier broke his body and spirit with all those body punches for 11 rounds and went for the knockout in round 11. The blow landed right on the chin and traveled less than 6 inches.

Dempsey couldn't knock out old Willard but that doesn't make him a bad finisher. He was knocked out of the ring and climbed back in to knock out Luis Firpo. It's also my opinion that he would have knocked out Gene Tunney had the ref not given the infamous long count. Between Dempsey and Marciano, I'd say Dempsey would finish you quicker in most cases, but once Marciano finished you, you were just that - finished.

I still say Tyson was a better finisher than Louis, but I noticed Tyson could sometimes get a bit wild when he was on the verge of a knockout. (The Holmes and Thomas knockouts are good examples). Louis landed every punch right on the button in all of his finishes.

Louis was the better finisher in that he determined the moment of his opponents' demise more precisely.

Tyson went after his opponent until he finished them while Louis constructed their demise when he chose to, making him more of a pure finisher.
It's true that Louis generally set up his finishes more than Mike, but Tyson did the same sometimes. The Marvis Frazier knockout was a perfect example. He blindsided the poor guy. He feinted a jab, and Marvis stepped right into the uppercut. Marvis was unconscious the second the punch landed.
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Re: Best Finisher?

BAD INTENTIONS
In reply to this post by Duggerman
When it comes to finishing it don't get any more vicious than Mike.....

Mike Tyson Beats Up Frank Bruno

Honorable mention to Rocky Marciano too...look how he finished Louis here...ducked his punch, landed a hard left uppercut and then knocked him out with a power right to the jaw....

Photobucket


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Re: Best Finisher?

Shane
Tyson was a better finisher than Louis although I find it strange that in two fights he could never stop Razor Ruddock but Lennox Lewis did. (Tyson looked to be on the verge of stopping him in the first fight but we'll never know thanks to Richard Steel).
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Re: Best Finisher?

Urban Legend
Tyson and Louis. I really can't choose who was better as the finisher. I have it as a draw. I've seen some good cases made for both of them here though.

People rarely survived Liston and Foreman once they had them hurt too.

Joe Frazier? I can't imagine how scary it'd be when that left hook goes whizzing right past your face. Once he had you hurt that left hook would put you out but there's no escaping it.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Evolution
In reply to this post by BAD INTENTIONS
BAD INTENTIONS wrote
When it comes to finishing it don't get any more vicious than Mike.....

Mike Tyson Beats Up Frank Bruno
That gif right there shows why I can't roll with Mike as the best finisher. He fought in spurts. Clinch him and you might survive. Bruno isn't even attempting to fight back, escape or even clinch. He's just laying back on the ropes taking the shots. Mike's opponents were so terrified to do anything about his attacks.

Compare that to Joe Louis who kept swinging until you were down. Mike, to me, got winded after throwing so many punches. I never saw that happen to Joe Louis.

Duggerman mentioned earlier that Tyson sometimes got wild as he tried to end it. That never happened to Louis either. He kept his cool and landed every punch right on cue.

Evander was a great finisher. It's amazing that George stayed on his feet. Most other heavyweights in the world would have been knocked out. But notice how (unlike Frank Bruno) George is attempting to clinch, occasionally counter and is leaning forward which takes the steam out of Evander's punches. Smart man.

Photobucket
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Re: Best Finisher?

Friday The 13th...
The best finisher of all times (heavyweights) is Louis or Tyson. We all know that. Might as well take your pick. But the fellas who fall in line after them is what sparks a real debate. I think Sonny Liston is really being shortchanged here. So what if Floyd Patterson was the only big name that he finished easily. Can you honestly expect Liston not to knock out someone like Braddock, Carnera, Morrison, etc? Watch these clips and tell me this man was not at least the third best finisher of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZfLcjHhxa4
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Re: Best Finisher?

Duggerman
Administrator
Friday The 13th... wrote
The best finisher of all times (heavyweights) is Louis or Tyson. We all know that. Might as well take your pick. But the fellas who fall in line after them is what sparks a real debate. I think Sonny Liston is really being shortchanged here. So what if Floyd Patterson was the only big name that he finished easily. Can you honestly expect Liston not to knock out someone like Braddock, Carnera, Morrison, etc? Watch these clips and tell me this man was not at least the third best finisher of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZfLcjHhxa4
I'm a huge fan of Sonny Liston. He had the same strategy in nearly all of his knockouts. He'd stun or hurt you by plowing through you with his hard left jab or left hook. Once you were hurt, he'd club you to death. But that strategy didn't work all the time. He was a great finisher once he had you hurt.

Evolution wrote
Evander was a great finisher. It's amazing that George stayed on his feet. Most other heavyweights in the world would have been knocked out. But notice how (unlike Frank Bruno) George is attempting to clinch, occasionally counter and is leaning forward which takes the steam out of Evander's punches. Smart man.

Photobucket
Yeah. George is doing all the right things to stay on his feet. If he were moving backward or dropping his hands he would have hit the canvas.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Alexander
In reply to this post by Hit Em' Hard
Hit Em' Hard wrote

Good job at giving Lennox Lewis his props. The way he finished Golota, Botha and Grant early was nothing short of spectacular.
Don't forget Razor Ruddock.
Razor was a top ranked heavyweight and Lewis blasted him outta there in two rounds.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Evan Fields
In reply to this post by Zorro
Zorro wrote
Mike Tyson - Wins 50(44) Losses 6(5)
79% of overall fights won by KO and 63% of overall fights won inside 4 rounds.

Joe Louis - Wins 69(55) Losses 3(2)
76% of overall fights won by KO and 47% of overall fights won inside 4 rounds.

From the numbers Tyson finished 'em earlier. But history also shows that once Louis had 'em on the go he finished 'em very efficiently. Louis was the better finisher in that he determined the moment of his opponents' demise more precisely.

Tyson went after his opponent until he finished them while Louis constructed their demise when he chose to, making him more of a pure finisher. So between the two, I go with Louis. Best finisher of all time. Tyson is second.
 I can't argue with that.
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Re: Best Finisher?

49-0
What to do and when--that's what those finishers know what to do and usually don't have to go back to their corners at the end of a round and have their managers remind them of it. Here's a few not mentioned half as much as they should be.

Larry Holmes. Once he got a guy ready to go, they didn't escape. He just didn't always get them ready to go. Vitali klitschko is another one--hard to slip through the cracks against that guy once badly hurt. Lennox Lewis sure knew what to do and when.

As for an era, that Ali/Frazier/Foreman was the best era of top notch finishers fighting at the same time. Usually 1 guy is head and shoulders above his competition at that skill--like Holmes. To have a period with 3 guys that excel at it is incredible. And, they fought each other.

Lamon Brewster was kind of like David Tua, in that if he got a guy ready to go they usually went. You have to put Rocky Marciano in the mix too. Out of 49 fights 43 were stoppages, so evidently the guy knew how to finish. Jack Dempsey would go for the finish once he had you hurt but like I said earlier about the Willard and Tunney fights, sometimes he failed. Jack Dempsey showed that there is a clear difference between being a great finisher and having great killer instinct.

Overall I'd say the best finisher of all time was Joe Louis.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Sivul
Jack Dempsey doesn't come off well here. Jess Willard was really durable and Jack was an old man when he fought Gene Tunney. Everyone else Jack finished sufficiently.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Zorro
In reply to this post by Alexander
Alexander wrote
Don't forget Razor Ruddock.
Razor was a top ranked heavyweight and Lewis blasted him outta there in two rounds.
Anyone else notice that Lewis did better than Tyson against certain opponents? Tyson struggled with Ruddock in two fights but Lewis KO'd him in two rounds. Tyson struggled with Tony Tucker and couldn't knock him down yet Lewis dominated him and was the first man to floor him. Off topic, I know. Just something I noticed. Tyson did better against Bruno than Lewis did, however.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Evolution
In reply to this post by Alexander
Alexander wrote
Hit Em' Hard wrote

Good job at giving Lennox Lewis his props. The way he finished Golota, Botha and Grant early was nothing short of spectacular.
Don't forget Razor Ruddock.
Razor was a top ranked heavyweight and Lewis blasted him outta there in two rounds.
Lennox could really crack. He'd hit you so hard that you forget to punch back. Generally when a guy cows you really hard you naturally wanna pay him back. Not Lennox.
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Re: Best Finisher?

redfeng007
In reply to this post by Evolution
George Foreman could survive that moment from Holyfield.

But not this moment, the bell saved George Foreman.

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/C7LOZ6EqEOg%26start=0205%26&end=0220%26autoplay=1

That is Holyfield's most dangerous weapon, his Super Counterpunch.

Not even Mike Tyson could survive that, the bell saved him too.

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/G_fM3OIbua4%26start=0015%26end=0090%26autoplay=1

If he keep using that Counterpunch well, I think he can KO any opponent.

The Counterpunch -Make your opponent miss his punch and hit him right on the spot.
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Re: Best Finisher?

Hit Em' Hard
Sometimes counterpunches get knockouts but not all the time. Most of Holyfield's counters are "balance" shots. He hits you when you miss and are off balance so you go down. Same thing as the Phantom Punch Ali dropped Liston with.
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