Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

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Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Is it overwhelmingly likely Holyfield enhanced his body, strength & physical capacities in good part due to PEDs?
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

George Jefferson
What a case you made there.  All of that cannot be coincidental. When do you think he started juicing? Around the time of his "heart conditions?" Do you think the heart story was a distraction/cover up?
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Duggerman
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There's a lot of myths about Holyfield. Shane Mosely once alleged that Holyfield was teaching classes on how to headbutt people. lol. I try not to entertain such thoughts.

Saying someone is on steroids is such a bold accusation to make. I figured something would have officially come out by now if Holyfield really used. I'm open to giving him the benefit of the doubt.

When I announced on Boxing News 24 (then known as Eastside Boxing) that I interviewed Shannon Briggs, I was put under a lot of pressure to ask him if he used steroids if I talked to him again. I was not going to ask him that. Not trying to go too off topic, but read here to get the story behind the story of my interview with Briggs.
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Bugs
Duggerman wrote
Not trying to go too off topic, but read here to get the story behind the story of my interview with Briggs.
Great read Duggerman. I enjoyed that, doc. I learned a lot about Shannon here. I can't help but ask if you interviewed Evander would you'd avoid the question also?
Eh....What's Up, Doc?
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Duggerman
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Entaowed, I moved our journalism comments into this thread. We were getting off base, but that discussion is perfect for the journalism sub-forum.
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Rachel
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Why do people do that to themselves? My uncle was a wrestler and ruined his health with steroids. I don't see the appeal in ruining your life and body. The side effects are not good. I used to love Hulk Hogan but I don't anymore. Look at what he's done to himself.
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

George Jefferson
Good post. I don't think Evander was juicing in the early 90s. But u seem to know your stuff. Maybe he was. To me he still looked like a crusierweight.
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
Now AJ, as the Bill of Rights prtotects the minority against the Tyranny of the Majority, sometimes complaints even by a few can be invalid & those making them are best answered by not allowing them to limit another's freedom.  Though it is a judgement call, your show, & I am not some Civil Rights hero!  Still people should just disagree or ignore IF there is nothing ethically improper or off topic...

Which brings me to your point about whether steroids effects a prime head to head assessment of Holyfield.  Firstly if someone THINKS it effects either the success of their overall career (undeniable in his case), or believes the PED time WAS their Prime Time, it is relevant to the question & sharing their opinion.

Now was '90-'92 Holyfield's absolute prime?  Maybeeee...He fought then:
Larry Holmes
Bert Cooper
George Foreman
Buster Douglas
Seamus McDonagh

Got rocked but beat Cooper, Beat Foreman who was too slow, much closer with old Larry...The other two were not very good then.  Maybe his only win over Bowe a bit later in '93 was his peak.  

Of course he was even BETTER relative to his peers earlier.  But did PEDs assist with being better in an absolute semse, not pound for pound, especially against very big guys? & all theoretical comers?

But anyway he may have started taking PEDS by or in the early '90's.  There is NO good way to have a firm opinion either way.  Not that the later greatest bulk did not help him against big men.  But here is the logic.

1) As I have established at length, in all likelihood the large scale investigation & multiple crdible media sources are accurate that he used PEDs, & was not a one time user nor a dabbler.

2) He gew from LHW into a good sized torso HW.  Now the early part of that COULD be natural growth & weightlifting from young.  But if an all but confirmed cheat, how can we have any confidence when he started?  Folks do this early often, not just when getting very big.

3) As I described previously, tons of substances maximize strength, hardness, cuts...Whiile minimizing increase in muscle mass.  Many athletes like A-Rod do this, not just athelets trying to stay in a weight class or avoid suspicion.  But Evenader could have used these in the '80's to stay beow HW & be dominant before jumping up to the glamor & money division.  But if someone is a cheat & liar, naturally you can have no confidence of whether earlier crimes ocurred.

Not saying he did, but that it easily could be true or he used later.  Logically either one could easily be true.  But steroids & some related PEDS also help you not only against bigger men, ut to forestall the decline of aging!  Baseball players sometimes had their BEST years when "aged", a totally unnatural pattern.  But just maintaining skills late may well be due to doping.

Now could the best Holyfield have been against Tyson?  He was extremely focused & motivated, + larger & stronger though quite lean with more experience.

Some even feel FOTC Ali ws the best one due to his strngth, sitting down on punches, chin...I disagree strongly as most do, he was faster, especially of foot earlier.  And had a long layoff with little time & few rounds to warm up.  

But there is a better case that Holyfield, with PEDS, larger & extremely well motivated was peak vs. Tyson.  PEDs can push your peak back.  I am totally unsure of this, but it is possible.

Either way, no reason to declare him clean early when he could have fought Tyson before prison.  Though he could have been....

Though it did help him significantly just considering later.
This is making my head spin. I'm not entirely convinced Evander was on anything, first of all. I'm just a fact-oriented guy. But as small as he was when he was heavyweight champion? I especially doubt he was on anything back then. And yes, I consider Evander's prime to be from the late '80s until maybe around '93 in the rematch with Bowe. He was the quickest and sharpest back then, although he did have a great run from '96 until '99. But he was aged 34-37 by then. By the time he got to Lennox Lewis he was past it, complaining of leg cramps. He suddenly got old in that fight.

But you're the man with steroid facts. That's not something I study. If you say Evander was on 'roids, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But at least now we have one place to discuss it. You can talk 'roids for 18 pages now. lol.

What's your opinion on this? Joe Louis (like Holyfield) was a small heavyweight during his twenties. After WWII, Joe bulked up quite a bit. He was much heavier. Lennox Lewis gained over 13 pounds after his loss to McCall, appearing much bigger. Even Ali put on more weight after his exile. Heavyweights get bigger as they mature into their thirties. Is it not possible for Evander to go up in weight naturally as those guys did? Surely you don't think they were on steroids too?
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Duggerman
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I never called you Shirley. You said that to someone else here before. What does that mean?

I know Louis wasn't considered small as a heavyweight for that time but overall he was a small heavyweight. 199-203 pounds? That's a small heavyweight by today's standards. That's what I meant. Considering he later bulked up to weight 212-218 pounds for his final fights, Louis was a miniscule heavyweight in his prime. He said in his book he regretted the weight gain. He thought the added weight would give him more power but instead it made him slower.
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Friday The 13th...
I was waiting on a thread like this! Entaowed what you do have against Evander? Did he impregnate your woman or something?  
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Friday The 13th...
Entaowed wrote
Yes, but she encouraged it & Evander is generous with his financial support & all 974 1/2 siblings make a great peer support & play group.  
lol. Makes sense. But seriously, who are some other guys you know of for an absolute fact that used PEDS? You make a great case for Evander. Any others come to mind?
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Zorro
Come on, Entaowed. We all know you've got something against Holyfield.  I remember when you signed up here. Your very first post was about Evander using PEDS and in every Evander thread you brought it up again and again. I admit that you get so repetitive around here sometimes that I tune you out. lol.

I am not so sure I trust these "facts" you reported. You know how the press can be. They sometimes make things up or twist things to make an interesting story. If Evander Holyfield---who was a highly popular champion in the '90s---got caught juicing up it would have been headline news. I can see it now. "Two-time Mike Tyson conquerer and all-time great boxing warrior Evander Holyfield caught using illegal substances!!"
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

BAD INTENTIONS
I don't care one way or the other if Evander used or not. Some insiders suspected but no one found him guilty. He's also not as big in person as he looks on screen.
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Re: Evander Holyfield & the Question of Illegal PEDs.

Entaowed
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