Foreman v. Frazier

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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shogun of Harlem
Shane wrote
 Neither guy was in total control.
There you go. But if forced to score it until the stoppage I had Joe ahead..
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Entaowed
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Joe Kingman
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It looked like Foreman was trying to swat a mosquito all night, and sometimes he was more annoyed by the pest than anything and didn't swat with much force. I scored it for Joe. My opinion.

-Joe Kingman
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
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Well of course I take it personally when you accuse me of bias without reason. You have a subtle bullying way with words and this is why I don’t engage with you much. Disagreements are fine. But I don’t like being accused of bias (especially with no evidence to support that, and I explained more than once why I scored those rounds for Joe) and then you getting “expert” opinions of others that agree with you. But that doesn’t help your case at all because opinions are just that...opinions.

Frazier landed more punches and showed much more movement and looked pretty good fighting with that speedy style, and Foreman looked like a cautious lumbering mummy in comparison. THAT is why I scored those rounds for Joe. What is biased about that??
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Urban Legend
In reply to this post by Joe Kingman
Joe Kingman wrote
It looked like Foreman was trying to swat a mosquito all night, and sometimes he was more annoyed by the pest than anything and didn't swat with much force. I scored it for Joe. My opinion.

-Joe Kingman
Same here. I had Joe ahead, but not by a lot.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Joe Kingman
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Here's a brilliant breakdown and analysis of precisely how George destroyed our man, Joe Frazier. I suggest subscribing to this guy's youtube channel. He's spot on.

-Joe Kingman
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Joe Kingman
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Duggerman
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^^Thanks for sharing, Joe.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
I admire Joe for changing tactics for the rematch. But he's just all wrong for Foreman no matter how he fights him.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Entaowed
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
Entaowed wrote
This is a great analyses, thank you Joe!

I just wonder how much of what Foreman did was instinctive.
I know that even if completely calm, I would likely not have the athletic intelligence to think about doing everything technically correct.  Remembering a general strategy & practicing would allow it to be like muscle memory.

Foreman would have taken longer, but still have won if he was allowed no illegal pushing.
He also is a good-natured showman, claiming his knees were shaking & that is why he did the staredown, so Frazier would not look down...But like him saying in his second career "I never had any speed to lose"...
These things were amusing & modest, but untrue.
Ali was surpised at how fast "The Mummy" cut off the ring.
I like how you TOTALLY ignored how I am "biased" to Frazier. I challenged you on this a few posts ago in this very thread and you had no answer.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Entaowed
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
You’re full of it, man. You can’t accuse someone of being biased without ANY evidence whatsoever. Are there ANY examples of me being biased to Joe in ANY thread? No there isn’t!! Just because I scored him ahead doesn’t make me biased. Others in this thread agree with me but you never accused them of being biased. It’s just how we scored the fight, which we have the right to do.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

GatorPurify
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Joe Kingman wrote
<center><iframe width="360" height="215" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/11e2POq3INs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe></center>
Great break down. Styles truly do make fights.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Entaowed
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
I’m NOT talking about your absence. You were gone 2 months. OK. Great. My issue is that you ASSUMED I was scoring the fight out of bias. That pissed me off. You owe ME a “My bad, man.” I’m not gonna stop feeling pissed until I at least get that.

Furthermore several people here agree with me that Frazier was ahead, including AJ, Urban Legend and Shogun.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Entaowed
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
Entaowed wrote
Shane it is indeed quite possible that you were not biased.  It seemed to me unlikely due to how Foreman seemed clearly ahead to me & the vast majority who look at it-but of course it is very possible you just saw it differently without the "our man Frazier" mentality here effecting you judgement.
You do not see that fan bias is nothing unusual, nor a moral flaw, & if I had given it a second thought I would have expected you would just say nah I am not biased & this is why.
Thanks man. Was that so hard to do?

Foreman seemed ahead to you and that's your opinion. But me, UL, Shogun, AJ and a few others here picked Frazier and we stated our reasons why. People have have different opinions. There was a thread on the old Eastside Boxing where a guy made convincing arguments that Ali would have won the FOTC if Frazier hadn't scored that last minute knockdown in round 15. Now do I believe Ali should have won it? No, but it was close. And this is in NO way me being biased for Frazier. I just think Joe had more convincing and dominant rounds than Ali did. But it's still a close fight.

My main point though, is that if someone has an unpopular opinion and EXPLAINS why they have this opinion, then you shouldn't label them as biased. I had explained why I thought Joe was winning...more than once in fact, yet you still called me bias when there was no reason to. If I had said, "Oh, Frazier was winning" and gave NO reasons why I feel so, then yes. That's fair to call me a biased fan boy.

If anything it shows I'm not biased because I have the courage to go "against the grain." It takes balls to have an unpopular opinion about certain things, and to stand up for yourself when challenged.  

I'll give you a TRUE example of bias- Did you know that the judges for Tyson-Douglas had Tyson winning on all three scorecards? THAT is bias, right there. There's no sane reason you can give to say Tyson was ahead in that fight. Aside from that one knockdown, he shouldn't have even made a dent on the scorecards. Buster dominated.
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Entaowed
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Re: Foreman v. Frazier

Shane
I've also said myself that Joe could never beat George. Never ever. But to me he looked good in the rematch. Adopting a different approach is how he lasted longer the second time around.

Furthermore, here are some of my posts about the fight. I EXPLAINED why I felt the way I did each time. So there was NO reason to say I was biased.

Shane wrote
That fight is a hard one to score because Frazier landed some big hooks but they were far and few inbetween. Foreman rarely caught Joe flush because Joe didn't stay in front of him. But if Joe hadn't gotten struck out I think he would have won an odd decision. Perhaps a split decision? Hard fight to judge, depends on what you're looking for. Neither guy was in total control.
Now despite me going into detail about WHY I felt this way, you insisted I was biased. Here was my reply, and I AGAIN gave reasons why I picked Frazier.

Shane wrote
How am I biased, bud? Like I said, its a hard fight to score. It was like a bull and a matador. Frazier spent more time running and fighting in spurts and George was too scared to pull the trigger. Hard to pick a real winner here but I lean slightly towards Joe because he landed the more memorable blows before the knockout. Explain to me how George was so far ahead?
Shane wrote
This isn't biased thinking, bud. That's just the way I personally scored the fight. Foreman looked awkward in there until he started landing big before the knockout.

The fight looked similar to Conn-Louis. Are you saying Louis should have been scored ahead when he wasn't landing anything and getting outpointed?
Shane wrote
Nope, bud. There's nothing at all biased about my opinion of Frazier-Foreman II. I have the right to an opinion and judged the fight on my own merit. Just because you can rally up links of people that share your opinion doesn't make me wrong.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter because Joe was knocked out and lost the fight anyway. But in my opinion (which I am entitled to have, whether you and the rest of the world disagrees or not) Joe looked good in there while the fight lasted. It was amazing to see one of boxing's greatest swarmers adopt a counter-punching "stick and move" strategy with relative success.

In my opinion Joe was leading, but it was still an awkward fight to score because neither guy was doing much. Joe was providing most of the action but was ineffective, and George was in the midst of his timid stage and scared to let loose.
And some OTHER posts backing Frazier here are....

Zorro wrote
I had Frazier ahead myself. He showed a new style of himself, sticking, moving, jabbing, countering. It was unique to see the best swarmer of all time fighting like a boxer. The judges had Frazier ahead but I think it was bias because they remembered how bad he whooped Frazier the first go round and they considered Frazier to be a washed up fighter. Frazier was doing moderately well until  George knocked the contact out of his eye. Then he was suddenly vulnerable.
Friday The 13th... wrote
To me the Foreman and Frazier rematch was a lot like Conn-Louis 1, main difference being that Louis had trouble catching Conn but George was too tentative to really let Joe have it. Joe hit George harder than Ron Lyle did but George took em' solid. I agree with Shane because neither man did much. You could make a case for either man but George didn't dominate until he had Joe hurt.
Duggerman wrote
Frazier did well imo, especially when compared to the first fight. He lasted longer and challenged Foreman a bit. It also worked to Joe’s favor that George was hesitant to throw the big bombs and cautious of his stamina. This was a different George than the one in Kingston.
Shogun of Harlem wrote
If forced to score it until the stoppage I had Joe ahead..
Joe Kingman wrote
It looked like Foreman was trying to swat a mosquito all night, and sometimes he was more annoyed by the pest than anything and didn't swat with much force. I scored it for Joe. My opinion.

-Joe Kingman
Urban Legend wrote
 I had Joe ahead, but not by a lot.
Some of these guys, like UL and Shogun, for example, didn't state why they felt Joe was winning. But did you accuse THEM of bias? No, but you targeted me, which was really unfair because as you see, I clearly gave reasons why. You were wrong for that.



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