Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
40 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Duggerman
Administrator
While you get the visuals of Ali and Marciano training and sparring, you hear the analysis and predictions of several former heavyweight champs of what would happen if they fought. Joe Louis, Jim Braddock, Jersey Joe Walcott, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey and others are featured.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Sivul
This is sweet, dude! Where did you find this???  To be honest I am surprised that some of the old-timers picked Ali to win. I figured they wouldn't like him since he was black and loud..everything Rocky wasn't. And Rocky had a pretty good jab there! I wonder why he didn't use it much. Good footage here and the fighters used good analysis.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Duggerman
Administrator
Sivul wrote
To be honest I am surprised that some of the old-timers picked Ali to win. I figured they wouldn't like him since he was black and loud
Yeah...Ali was not a popular champion during the 1960s. But also, this was before the wars he had with Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, etc. At the time, his chin and toughness were still in question. But Rocky's greatness had already been confirmed.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

RICKY TAN
....and some of them are speaking out of bias. Joe Louis for example did not get along with young Ali.

But some of them have legit reasons as they explained, like Nat Fleisher. He didn't live to see Ali impress us in the '70s but he saw Rocky's entire career. Ali was still a question mark in the '70s. He was fast, of course. But the few times he got clocked (like against Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks) he was damn near destroyed.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Evolution
Great find, Duggerman. Great find. It's always nice to hear what the legends think of the more modern champions.

Ya'll are right that yes, there may be some bias in some of them due to Ali's race and/or personality. And although he cleaned out the division and twice upset Sonny Liston (although both wins were controversial) Muhammad still had a lot to prove. We didn't know if he was the real thing yet. It wasn't until the Foreman win that Ali finally got real respect from the world.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Duggerman
Administrator
Some of these guys were real technicians and knew that Rocky would pose problems for Ali despite his speed. Schmeling and Louis, for example, noted the flaws in Ali's style, like how he had his hands down and could be caught against the ropes, etc. Schmeling summed things up well when he said, "Ali has a lot to learn." That is what the consensus was back then. Ali was fast but fundamentally flawed, and they figured this would be his downfall against Rocky.

Random, but you can see a young Angelo Dundee and Jimmy Young in the footage. And boy, Rocky was relentless in sparring. He was fierce in there.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Evolution
Rocky was serious business. You can see his double left hook here. People talk about his "suzy-q" all the time but he had a great left hand too. The left hook was a hard punch and he threw the jab with authority too.

In my opinion Ali would beat him though. Rocky may fare better against the '70s Ali, who sometimes sacrificed rounds by playing and holding. This would allow Rocky to pull off what Frazier did, maybe to even more success.

But the '60s Ali? Rocky would be stopped on cuts probably.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Zorro
In reply to this post by RICKY TAN
The Governor wrote
....and some of them are speaking out of bias. Joe Louis for example did not get along with young Ali.

But some of them have legit reasons as they explained, like Nat Fleisher. He didn't live to see Ali impress us in the '70s but he saw Rocky's entire career. Ali was still a question mark in the '70s. He was fast, of course. But the few times he got clocked (like against Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks) he was damn near destroyed.
My father used to say all that time that a lot of past champions would "moida Clay." We didn't know at the time how good Ali really was. It was not until the 1970s that he proved he was the real thing by knocking out young Foreman and surviving Manilla.

But in the '60s people regularly predicted that the Marcianos, Dempseys and Johnsons of the past would hand Ali his arrogant ass.

Rocky always got in close and smashed his opponents. He won 43 fights out of 49 by knockout. Undefeated. And then you've got Ali who hadn't been tested yet and his biggest wins (Sonny Liston) were dubious.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Entaowed
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Duggerman
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Courtney
Entaowed wrote

I could see a good case for Rocky doing as well as Frazier during the '70's.  I do not know about just as well or better, because the speed & size differential was greater.  
Muhammad said here that Rocky was better than Joe Frazier. Ali sparred 70 rounds with Rocky (suffering bruised ribs as a result) and fought three brutal rounds with Frazier. Having shared the ring with both warriors, I take the champ at his word.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Zorro
Courtney wrote
Entaowed wrote

I could see a good case for Rocky doing as well as Frazier during the '70's.  I do not know about just as well or better, because the speed & size differential was greater.  
Muhammad said here that Rocky was better than Joe Frazier. Ali sparred 70 rounds with Rocky (suffering bruised ribs as a result) and fought three brutal rounds with Frazier. Having shared the ring with both warriors, I take the champ at his word.
Good call, Courtney. I do believe that Frazer was better than Rocky in terms of hand speed and punch precision and his pace was a bit faster than Rocky's. But according to Ali Rocky was the bigger nightmare. He said after the Computer fight filming that Rocky was hard to hit with a jab and that if he was this difficult as an old man then he couldn't imagine fighting Rocky in his prime.

Entaowed wrote
I disagree with the extreme views of Lucard, but in matching Rocky against modern larger HWs, I cannot see him doing nearly as well as he did in his era.
Lucard hasn't been here in some while, nor has he posted in this thread. Are you talking about Alucard? Even if so, he hasn't been here for a while either. #confused
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Entaowed
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Zorro
Entaowed wrote
Yes I meant Alucard, that has not been so long.  
Well to be honest, Luc has not posted since October 5. Alucard hasn't been here since October 20th. That's far from an eternity, but still long enough for it to be random for you to bring up either guy when they've been idle for long. It just seems kinda random.

Entaowed wrote
An advantage Frazier had over Rocky you did not mention-accuracy.
I did mention accuracy, however.

Zorro wrote
I do believe that Frazer was better than Rocky in terms of hand speed and punch precision and his pace was a bit faster than Rocky's.
Punch precision = accuracy. That's what I meant. Joe was more precise with his shots. Same thing as accuracy...I just used a different word. We both agree though.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Kid Dynamite
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
But Ali may well have both been being gracious to the dead, & his almost everlasting feud with Frazier might have had him begrudge full credit where it was due.
If I'm not mistaken isn't Joe who hated Ali? I don't think Ali ever held any ill will toward Joe personally. I remember he said once that Joe was a "good fella" and he was just trying to get him riled up. But some of you guys know more about their feud than I do.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Duggerman
Administrator
In this TV interview, Rocky himself said similar things that the other greats said here, but was more detailed. "Clay has never been hit hard on the chin," "He's never had a great fight," "The Liston wins are suspicious," "Time will tell if he's a great fighter," etc.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Entaowed
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Kid Dynamite
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Duggerman
Administrator
Entaowed wrote
Ali acted very hatefully towards Frazier.  Possiby it was not intentionally cruel, but at least he must have NOTICED Joe's agitation was no act, & did not care that he used deeply denigrating mockery, & essentially racist stereotypes.
That's what I think. I really don't think Ali did it out of true malice. But he knew it was angering Joe and he wanted to use that psychological advantage in the ring. He knew Joe was a tough, heavy-handed slugger. He was trying to get in his head and throw him off his game. But it had the opposite effect; Joe prayed to God that he would literally kill Ali and was willing to die in Manilla. That's how strong his hatred became.

I remember when the two got into a brawl on a live TV show. Ali was just goofing off, but Joe really lost it and was fighting for real. For Ali, it was all about entertainment, a psychological advantage and publicity. But it came at Frazier's expense. Ali did really betray the man who helped him when he was down. But I don't think he really realized it until much later. His ego was all about making sure people watched their fights.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Urban Legend
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I'm not surprised. Ali's greatness had not been confirmed yet. He needed the second part of his career to validate himself as the GOAT.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

Shogun of Harlem
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
Thanks man. Rocky's statements here sum up how boxing historians and conservative white America felt about Ali at the time.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Former Heavyweight Champs Offer Analysis on Marciano/Ali

It's Dale
Some people already knew that Clay/Ali was sensational. Jersey Joe Walcott said that Ali was the greatest heavyweight the world ever had, and this was based on only his '60s career. Some of these men know an all-time great heavyweight when they see one, but others need more convincing.
12