If Cus D'Amato had lived..

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If Cus D'Amato had lived..

George Jefferson
how would Mike Tyson's career have turned out?
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Evolution
Mike would have fouled things up anyway. Cus used to let young Mike get away with misbehaving all the time. I witnessed one of many confrontations between Teddy, Cus and some of the other trainers. Cus refused to punish or suspend his best fighter.

I was friendly with Mike when he was a teenager but he was a real asshole to me when I ran into him again in 1997.

Even if Cus hadn't died it would have been only a matter of time before Mike fired Cus and moved on to Don King and the other leeches. Mike's career would have been the same.

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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Duggerman
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I can hear Tyson's high lisping voice now. "Fuck you old man!" Yes, he would have turned on Cus eventually. But he did have respect for Cus and Jimmy Jacobs. He probably would have disrespected them more often once the big money came in but ultimately I think he'd have listened to their advice. Tyson would have came apart regardless because the money and fame came to him when he was too immature to handle it all, although the process of his decline would have been slower if Cus and Jimmy had lived longer.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Duggerman
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You said yourself that Cus didn't discipline Mike enough. Because of this, I see Cus' hold over Tyson thinning out as the big success arrives. We'll never know for sure, though. In my opinion Tyson would have ended up the same...it just would have taken longer. When you let someone get away with whatever they like, they won't respect you as much. That's part of why Teddy Atlas left...he saw the writing on the wall.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Malik Wright
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
I don't know AJ.  He may well have, but if he had them around, especially Cus, & Cus was a DISCIPLINES father figure, Tyson may have avoided or minimized those problems.  He had a lot of say over Tyson, & Tyson might have listened if he got good advice about the wrong crowd...avoiding Robin Givens might have been more difficult, but Cus could have steered him right after he saw her true colors, & the lesson's would be reinforced.
U ain't makin no kinda sense. AJ and Evolution said the same thing, really. Yet you praise Evolution but disagree with AJ?
Malik El Debarge Wright
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Urban Legend
Mike was a fighting machine with Cus. Tyson would have continued ruling the planet. Let's say Cus lived until 1995 or so. Tyson would have fought Bowe, Lewis and Holyfield, maybe even Foreman. And he beats them all. No bullshit rape accusations, no prison time, no Robin Givens, no Don King, none of that shit. Tyson would have retired undefeated. No one was around to beat him but himself.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Zorro
Cus and Jimmy Jacobs kept Don King away. Mike Tyson's career would have turned out for the better.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

BAD INTENTIONS
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
You said yourself that Cus didn't discipline Mike enough. Because of this, I see Cus' hold over Tyson thinning out as the big success arrives. We'll never know for sure, though. In my opinion Tyson would have ended up the same...it just would have taken longer. When you let someone get away with whatever they like, they won't respect you as much. That's part of why Teddy Atlas left...he saw the writing on the wall.
I know people who were in the original "Camp Tyson". It's commonly known that Cus was very lenient with Mike when it came to the rules. For all his wisdom, Cus never realized one important thing. You can take the boy out of the ghetto but you can't take the ''ghetto'' out of the boy.

By the time Mike met Cus he had already developed his anti-social attitude towards women. It has proven to be Mike's greatest down fall. You just can't treat women the way Mike has become used to doing, The Washington case aside, which IMO, Mike was railroaded. He should have been smart enough to avoid that.

Legend has it that Atlas had a niece who lived with Cus. Mike once fondled the girl who asked him not to do it. Because Cus did not hold Mike accountable for his behavior, he figured he could do as he pleased and the rules didn't apply to him. Atlas and Cus argued many times over the issue of Tyson's behavior, which also spilled over in school with other girls.

People need to realize that Atlas was just a member of the camp, not a "big brother" type to Mike. Though Teddy over-plays the ''tought guy'' routine sometimes, he meant well in his attempt to ensure that Mike lived by the same rules the other kids lived by. But Cus saw something special in Mike and had a personal affection for him. He loved Mike more than Floyd Patterson and we all remember how much Cus loved Floyd Patterson. Mike was Floyd Patterson with Sonny Liston-esque power and a solid chin. Cus was in love.

While I agree with Atlas, that Tyson's behavior should have been kept in check, I can understand Cus' point of view. I dont agree with it, however. There might have been other ways Atlas could have handled the situation. He tried too hard to force Tyson to follow the rules, often going out of his way to ensure even the smallest details, such as bedtime and other minor issues.

This created a personal rift between Atlas and Mike. Mike often hid behind the fact that Cus, not Atlas, had the final say. This infuriated Atlas who became obsessed with making sure Mike followed the rules. When Mike went too far, in fondling Atlas' niece, Teddy went over the edge and confronted Mike with a gun. While I understand his feeling I could see the flaw in his method. I think his intention was to scare Mike. It's not a good idea to point a gun unless you intend to use it, which I dont think Teddy intended to.

Still, I can also understand Atlas' frustration with Mike's refusal to respect the fact that his niece didn't want to be fondled. Perhaps he ran out of ways to make Mike understand that he just can't go around putting his hands on women if they don't want to be touched.

It's a real shame because, if not for the personal issues, Atlas might well have been a much better trainer for Mike than Kevin was. The problem is that Kevin and Mike had more in common with each other than did Mike and Teddy. Both Mike and Kevin are irresponsible and self destructive while Atlas lives a more organized life. He and Mike would not have been a good personal mix. Atlas is far too much "by the book" for Mike while Kevin is more likely to "Bend rules" here and there, not just with training but with life.

For all these reasons and knowing what I know, it is safe to assume that Mike would have went off the tracks anyway. Mike was young but still a grown man. You can't protect him forever. For years Cus didn't allow Floyd Patterson to give Sonny Liston a title shot. Floyd went to see President Kennedy who told him to fight Sonny. Floyd was a grown man and made up his mind to face Sonny and leave Cus.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Rosco
In reply to this post by Malik Wright
Malik Wright wrote
Entaowed wrote
I don't know AJ.  He may well have, but if he had them around, especially Cus, & Cus was a DISCIPLINES father figure, Tyson may have avoided or minimized those problems.  He had a lot of say over Tyson, & Tyson might have listened if he got good advice about the wrong crowd...avoiding Robin Givens might have been more difficult, but Cus could have steered him right after he saw her true colors, & the lesson's would be reinforced.
U ain't makin no kinda sense. AJ and Evolution said the same thing, really. Yet you praise Evolution but disagree with AJ?
Entaowed doesn't make sense half the time anyway.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Rosco
Entaowed wrote
I just explained how I made sense when my comment was not understood Rosco.  If I do not make sense 1/2the time anyway", show me one instance when this is true.  I'll listen, but I doubt this is about a matter of substance.  If a sub rosa petty resentment, out with it man.
I'll show you one instance...I don't understand what the hell you just said right there! lol. What is a "sub rosa petty resentment?" lol.

So you know, I understand your post at Malik since you cleared it up. For me its the big words and dialect you sometimes use. "sub rosa petty resentment?" Is that a hispanic cleaning lady or something? lol.
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Duggerman
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In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
  I also have zero idea if the rape conviction was bullshit or not.  I think no one here does either.
I really, really doubt he did that. What girl goes to a famous millionaire's room at 3 AM for milk and cookies? lol. She was just another gold digging groupie that wanted some money.

Tyson is childlike to this day because he says what's on his mind whenever it's up there, whether it's inappropriate or not. He's always denied that rape allegation. He was just stupid to put himself in such a situation.

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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

49-0
Mike Tyson slept with millions of women I bet. And only one accused him of rape. Kinda fishy, eh?
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

49-0
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Entaowed wrote
No.  There is no debate amongst criminologists that the vast majority of rapes are not reported.  And there s no indication that IF Tyson was guilty he had to be raping many or multiple times.

If she lied she should be going to jail.  But arguments like this or that she must have known he wanted sex hold no water.  Whether she knew or not has zero bearing in whether she was forced or not, changed her mind, lied, etc...
I don't wanna hear that shit. Duggerman was right when he said that Tyson is honest to a fault. Mike is like a kid. I remember Jose Torres said once that he asked Mike who he hit the hardest and Mike laughed and said Robin Givens and that she hit every wall in the room before she hit the ground.

Mike is real. He's a street nigga. If he raped anyone he'd admit that to you. When Mike was in jail, a reporter asked him if he raped that broad and Tyson said "no, but I've done so many other bad things that I feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be."
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Re: If Cus D'Amato had lived..

Entaowed
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