Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
33 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Zombies Ate Me
I found this article online. The writer is of the opinion that Joe Frazier would not only beat Sonny Liston but "destroy" him. I don't agree. Sonny hit too hard for Smokin Joe. But it's an interesting read. What do you boxing analysts think?

I just had the pleasure of watching a replay of Liston-Patterson I. Although Sonny crushed Floyd in an impressive fashion, in the words of the great Max Schmeling, "I see something." It was up close on the slow motion replay. I saw how often Floyd's bobbing and weaving style made Liston miss badly. I've always felt that Liston along with George Foreman had the perfect style to thwart Joe Frazier. With Big George, I have no doubt, since he has twice proved his point. However, with Frazier facing Liston, I'm not so sure anymore.

I have Liston ranked high among my all time heavyweights. He's #6 on my list behind Ali, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and Foreman. He had the jab, the strength, the power and the killer instinct. Liston was a big heavyweight in his era. Circa 1971...The Joe Frazier who beat Muhammad Ali in Madison Square Garden on March 8th was one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Frazier was never better before and he was never the same after.

I can not remember a fighter so motivated to win that he put his whole career and future on the line to achieve victory. On that night Joe Frazier was great.

Take that Joe Frazier and match him against Sonny Liston on his best night and what do you get ? One hell of a fight!

When I saw Floyd bobbing and weaving, effectively slipping the Liston jab I thought to myself, how would Frazier react in that situation? If you took away Liston's jab, you won half the battle. Yes, Liston had a good uppercut, which would be effective in deterring an aggressive fighter on coming forward. Still, Liston was not that much bigger than Frazier. Foreman and even Ali, were just bigger and stronger than Frazier and it enabled them to simply out fight the smaller Frazier. Liston in top shape was 210-215. Worst case scenario, he would have ten pounds on a prime Frazier.

I just feel that Frazier could have taken the best Liston had to offer. Liston was a very slow puncher. He did not throw short, sharp and accurate punches like Joe Louis. Liston was a mauler and a brawler. I could see Frazier just sliding under those shots and landing murderous left hook counters. How many of those could Liston have taken? From the way I see it, Joe has one of the best left hooks in the history of boxing. Just ask Ali, Jimmy Ellis and Bob Foster.

If Frazier could survive the crucial first and second round, I see him picking up momentum and just breaking Liston down. I've got to go with Frazier.



http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/news.php?p=5713&more=1
who wins this battle?
You cannot change your vote after voting.
You have to vote before you can see the results.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Evan Fields
Joe was vulnerable to the heavy hitters. The author of this article is right about one thing; Joe would evade Liston's slow jab and close the gap for sure. But Sonny punched too hard for Joe. Sonny wins by knockout in two, similar to the Foreman fight.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Hit Em' Hard
Evan Fields wrote
Joe was vulnerable to the heavy hitters. The author of this article is right about one thing; Joe would evade Liston's slow jab and close the gap for sure. But Sonny punched too hard for Joe. Sonny wins by knockout in two, similar to the Foreman fight.
I hate it when people compare Sonny and Foreman. George Foreman stood 6'3 or 6'4..he towered over Joe. Like the article explained, Sonny wasn't much bigger than Joe....only two inches taller and similar in weight and strength.

Joe had a better workrate, stamina and speed. Once he gets inside, Sonny doesn't have a chance. That left hook would destroy him. Sonny never fought anyone like a Joe Frazier before. It's a pity they never fought in the 60s, although Liston was far from his peak by then.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Duggerman
Administrator
Hit Em' Hard wrote
I hate it when people compare Sonny and Foreman.
Well, Liston punched harder than Foreman, according to Chuck Wepner, who fought both guys.

Despite that, I think Joe would knock out Sonny Liston. We've seen how Liston reacts when you stand up to him. Unlike Patterson, Frazier would make Liston pay for every punch he missed. Liston either quits after getting crushed again and again with left hook counters, or he gets knocked out before round 8.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Shane
Lets be frank. Its a dangerous matchup for both. But I think Joe comes off the floor to smoke the Big Bear late IMO.

Joes bobbing & weaving negates Listons jab and without that i could forsee him struggling to land shots as they seemed to all be set up from the jab. Joe in his day was not an easy target. Could see a few landing solid and possibly decking Joe, but ultimately i think Fraziers speed and movement with continous all out assult grinds Liston down. I like Joes heart more than Sonnys down the stretch of a tough brawl.

To cut a long story short Joe Frazier is way better than any scalp Liston ever claimed, whereas Joe himself beat at least one far greater fighter than Liston.

Frazier either by points or a stoppage anytime after 10.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Evan Fields
In reply to this post by Hit Em' Hard
Hit Em' Hard wrote
I hate it when people compare Sonny and Foreman. George Foreman stood 6'3 or 6'4..he towered over Joe. Like the article explained, Sonny wasn't much bigger than Joe....only two inches taller and similar in weight and strength.

Joe had a better workrate, stamina and speed. Once he gets inside, Sonny doesn't have a chance. That left hook would destroy him. Sonny never fought anyone like a Joe Frazier before. It's a pity they never fought in the 60s, although Liston was far from his peak by then.
Joe was vulnerable early on. Sonny would catch him cold early. Joe would put up a bettter fight once he starts "smokin" in round 4, but by then he would be knocked out or hurt by Sonny's incoming bombs.

I've seen Joe get dropped by Mike Bruce and Oscar Bonavena. He also got stunned by Manuel Ramos, George Chuvalo and Ron Stander. If those guys hurt Joe early on, so could an ATG like Sonny Liston. And if he clocks him, its a wrap.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Rosco
In reply to this post by Shane
Redemption wrote
 I like Joes heart more than Sonnys down the stretch of a tough brawl.
Sonny knocks out Joe. Sonny has the two fisted power and strength to monster Joe on the inside, Frazier coming forward will put him in a position where Liston is able to impose his physical advantages on him... he had a huge uppercut which Joe would be susceptible to from his crouched stance. Liston had the ability to fight at a calculated pace, but he wouldn't have to in this case.... Frazier would put himself in a position where a toe to toe Brawl is inevitable and Liston would come out on top. Liston didn't lack heart, he was no pussy, he was durable and he's not about to crumble with the first left hook joe plants on his jaw. The fights against Williams are revealing, it shows that even when a fighter showed no signs of intimidation whatsoever and put some hurt on Liston he was able to maintain his composure and get the job done.

Frazier cannot last long enough in the eye of the storm to get the job done.... Liston by TKO in mid rounds.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Duggerman
Administrator
Rosco wrote
Redemption wrote
 I like Joes heart more than Sonnys down the stretch of a tough brawl.
Sonny knocks out Joe. Sonny has the two fisted power and strength to monster Joe on the inside, Frazier coming forward will put him in a position where Liston is able to impose his physical advantages on him... he had a huge uppercut which Joe would be susceptible to from his crouched stance. Liston had the ability to fight at a calculated pace, but he wouldn't have to in this case.... Frazier would put himself in a position where a toe to toe Brawl is inevitable and Liston would come out on top. Liston didn't lack heart, he was no pussy, he was durable and he's not about to crumble with the first left hook joe plants on his jaw. The fights against Williams are revealing, it shows that even when a fighter showed no signs of intimidation whatsoever and put some hurt on Liston he was able to maintain his composure and get the job done.

Frazier cannot last long enough in the eye of the storm to get the job done.... Liston by TKO in mid rounds.
I wouldn't say Sonny was a "pussy." I wouldn't go that far. He certainly had heart at times. Marty Marshall broke his jaw and Sonny didn't quit. But against Frazier, it's a styles thing.

Sonny was arrogant, under-trained, and past his peak by the time he fought Cassius Clay. But Joe Frazier was past his peak in Manilla and still almost beat Ali. I think Frazier would bring too much heat for Sonny. Sonny never fought anyone like Frazier in his life. The closest was Floyd Patterson, who was too afraid to throw counters and not at Frazier's level anyway.

Frazier never fought someone like Sonny Liston either, although Oscar Bonavena and Ron Stander were the closest. (But of course they weren't as good as Sonny.) Frazier beat up everybody with his swarming style and I don't think Sonny would be an exception.

Frazier should rank higher than Liston on all counts. He beat better competition, only lost to two heavyweights, and had a style that would outwork and beat up anyone unless your name is George Foreman.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Urban Legend
In reply to this post by Evan Fields
Evan Fields wrote
Joe was vulnerable early on. Sonny would catch him cold early. Joe would put up a bettter fight once he starts "smokin" in round 4, but by then he would be knocked out or hurt by Sonny's incoming bombs.

I've seen Joe get dropped by Mike Bruce and Oscar Bonavena. He also got stunned by Manuel Ramos, George Chuvalo and Ron Stander. If those guys hurt Joe early on, so could an ATG like Sonny Liston. And if he clocks him, its a wrap.
Yes. No disrespect to Mr. Frazier but Sonny takes advantage of his slow start and blows him out before round 3.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Hit Em' Hard
In reply to this post by Evan Fields
Evan Fields wrote
Joe was vulnerable early on. Sonny would catch him cold early. Joe would put up a bettter fight once he starts "smokin" in round 4, but by then he would be knocked out or hurt by Sonny's incoming bombs.

I've seen Joe get dropped by Mike Bruce and Oscar Bonavena. He also got stunned by Manuel Ramos, George Chuvalo and Ron Stander. If those guys hurt Joe early on, so could an ATG like Sonny Liston. And if he clocks him, its a wrap.
Watch Patterson-Liston 1. Sonny couldn't figure Floyd out. All that ducking, bobbing and weaving made Sonny swing wild and miss like a washer woman. Joe Frazier would punish Sonny for every missed punch. Sonny was tough but there's nothing as menacing as having a prime, aggressive, relentless, hard punching Joe Frazier on your ass. Aside from beating a scared Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston gave up when he faced the only other ATG he fought in Muhammad Ali. Muhammad stood up to him. Frazier would too. And he'd hurt him bad.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Rosco
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
Frazier never fought someone like Sonny Liston either, although Oscar Bonavena and Ron Stander were the closest. (But of course they weren't as good as Sonny.) Frazier beat up everybody with his swarming style and I don't think Sonny would be an exception.
Well Frazier certainly fought George Foreman who was not as good as Sonny technically but had power almost at his level. To be honest Foreman got lucky. He said in one interview he was scared to death and was swinging out of terror. Lucky for him Frazier was crouching right in the range to get caught with those uppercuts.

Sonny Liston was better than George Foreman. Far better jab, more powerful and he didn't have a weak heart like so many have said. Most people point to the Muhammad Ali fights but Sonny was old by then and underrestimated how great Muhammad really was.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Duggerman
Administrator
Rosco wrote
Well Frazier certainly fought George Foreman who was not as good as Sonny technically but had power almost at his level. To be honest Foreman got lucky. He said in one interview he was scared to death and was swinging out of terror. Lucky for him Frazier was crouching right in the range to get caught with those uppercuts.

Sonny Liston was better than George Foreman. Far better jab, more powerful and he didn't have a weak heart like so many have said. Most people point to the Muhammad Ali fights but Sonny was old by then and underrestimated how great Muhammad really was.
Frazier has it sewn up. Past his peak or not, Sonny quit twice against the best fighter he fought. He couldn't catch Ali and kept leaving himself open for counters by diving in with wild left hooks.

Joe Frazier would get close, make Sonny miss and beat him up for it. Every time Sonny misses, he's getting punished with left hooks to the body and the head. No way does he stand up to Frazier's punishment for 15 rounds. If Liston thought Ali beat him up, imagine his face when he's in the ring with Joe Frazier.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Zorro
This is a bad, bad matchup for Joe, anybody who "pressure" fights Liston by going straight for him would realistically end up in big trouble. Frazier was a superb fighter, however styles make fights and I can't seen him lasting beyond the mid-rounds. Liston hits harder than Foreman. For the purposes of this fight he'd be as functionally as strong as Foreman. He's a better boxer than George, his reach is longer than George and we all know what George did to Frazier. Twice.

Liston TKO4 Frazier. Maybe earlier than that.
Don
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Don
Zorro wrote
This is a bad, bad matchup for Joe, anybody who "pressure" fights Liston by going straight for him would realistically end up in big trouble. Frazier was a superb fighter, however styles make fights and I can't seen him lasting beyond the mid-rounds. Liston hits harder than Foreman. For the purposes of this fight he'd be as functionally as strong as Foreman. He's a better boxer than George, his reach is longer than George and we all know what George did to Frazier. Twice.

Liston TKO4 Frazier. Maybe earlier than that.
No. Sonny was nothing more than a big slugger. He had a hard jab at his disposal but that wouldn't matter against a swarmer like Joe Frazier who bobs and weaves under that kind of stuff. Joe gets up close and knocks Sonny out with a chilling left hook. It may last until round 6-8. Sonny can't hang with Joe Frazier in the deep end.
ONLY IN AMERICA!!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

the boston strong boy
In reply to this post by Zombies Ate Me
its like marciano frazier took alot of punches liston hit like a cannon as did frazier but liston would take you out quick it would be like foreman vs frazier joes no question a great but you cant take punches from huge punchers like liston all night if he fought the much older liston frazier would of killed him
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

the boston strong boy
frazier like marciano wore his opponent down then kod him liston wanted to end it quick and he could if he hit you i dont care how good of a punch you can take getting hit by big bombs more than once will make you see stars even if the fighter is good
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

It's Dale
Sonny punched harder than George and was a better technician. Better jab, better skills. Joe wouldn't last long here. Why didn't these two fight?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Entaowed
Banned User
This post was updated on .
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Hit Em' Hard
Entaowed wrote
did Liston really hit harder than Foreman?  I will not be sure just upon Wepner's word.
why not? Chuck Wepner fought them both. So did Muhammad Ali of course but he rarely tasted Liston's power. Chuck took punches flush from both guys and said that old Sonny Liston hit harder than the young prime George Foreman.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Joe Frazier ('68-71) vs. Sonny Liston ('58-63)

Duggerman
Administrator
The poll is tied! Someone vote! We need a winner! I still back Frazier.
12