Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

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Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Duggerman
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Like his fight with Ezzard Charles earlier that year, Joe looked pretty good despite age catching up with him. I think he relied heavily upon proper snap and hand speed to make his punches devastating. Since he lost those reflexes his punches lacked steam. I can just tell that many of these blows would have hurt much worse if he'd been younger. He failed to score a knockout but still looked good. Cesar came to fight and they put on a good show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxwckdc7rE
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Friday The 13th...
Call me crazy but Joe might have been able to fight on another 2 or 3 years had he not suffered the humiliating loss to Marciano. The only fights he lost toward the end were to Ezzard and Rocky. Seems to me he might make a buck beating anyone under the top 3 at that time.

1) Ezzard Charles (Champ)

2) Jersey Joe Walcott (Became champ the next year)

3) Rocky Marciano (Became champ two years later)

Joe messed up Lee Savold pretty bad. I wonder how he would have done against Roland LaStarza? Did he have enough left to get a decision over him?
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Duggerman
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Friday The 13th... wrote
Call me crazy but Joe might have been able to fight on another 2 or 3 years had he not suffered the humiliating loss to Marciano. The only fights he lost toward the end were to Ezzard and Rocky. Seems to me he might make a buck beating anyone under the top 3 at that time.

1) Ezzard Charles (Champ)

2) Jersey Joe Walcott (Became champ the next year)

3) Rocky Marciano (Became champ two years later)

Joe messed up Lee Savold pretty bad. I wonder how he would have done against Roland LaStarza? Did he have enough left to get a decision over him?
I think he was wise to hang it up when he did. He should have stayed retired after 1948 but I understand he had no other way to make real money.

The heavyweight division was terrible at the time but Joe was just too old. He probably would have lost a rubber match to Walcott. Ezzard Charles was just too slick for Louis at that time, and we also saw what happened when he fought Marciano, who was too aggressive and punched too hard for Louis.

Louis looked decent against Savold, Brion and some of the others but he was noticeably declining with each fight. He was only a mere shadow of his former self. If he resumed his career, he would have been a stepping stone for upcoming journeymen heavyweights and that's a sad way for a legendary champ like Louis to end his career.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Zorro
Never saw this one before. It's really emotional for me to watch because he's giving it his absolute best but his talent is obviously going down hill. You can see the fight he wants to fight but his body is slowing him down. I see mere flashes of the great Joe Louis from 10 years before but that's it. Mere flashes. He wouldn't be able to stay in the top ten at this stage of his career.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Entaowed
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Zorro
Entaowed wrote
I agree about his decline in skills, + it would seem to be sad for him to be reduced to a gatekeeper.  But WHY woud he not be able to stay in the top 10 "at this stage of his career"?  He had won 8 straight since he lost to Charle before fighting Rocky, nothing worse than a unanimous decision, & not all were tomato cans.  Some PRIME champions retain titles with split decisions.  Then next year he lost to Rocky, but won some rounds against a great fighter.  

Besides the big 3, who would be favored to beat him during the end of his career?  Sometime, an unknown period after his last fight, he would be unable to stay top ten.  But at this stage, winning a UD against Jimmy Bivins AFTER this fight, A KO against Lee Savold before: & earlier than Rocky was able to stop him next year!! He seems CLEARLY top 5!

In fact, his last 8 fights were within less than 8 months!  Talk about bum of the month club, is this not very IMPRESSIVE the success & almost frantic "work rate" of fights?  It shows how great Louis was, even shot he was excellent.  How many "shot" fighters-or anyone-could win so often in such a short period?
I have reservations that he would stay top ten for long. How do you see him doing against Roland LaStarza? Roland was pretty damn good and durable, giving Rocky Marciano two tough fights. Roland could take a punch and Louis was going downhill. Roland is one person I'd pick to beat a slowing Louis, Archie Moore is another. You could argue that he still belonged in the top ten but it'd only be a matter of time before journeymen fighters would start beating him.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Entaowed
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Duggerman
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Joe probably wouldn't have lasted too much longer. Rocky Marciano said in this article that Joe's right hand was "nothing." He said it didn't hurt at all. I knew Joe's punch had faded but I didn't realize it was "nothing."

Here's the quote and a link to the full article.

 "I knew I was going to catch him with a left hook," Rocky explained. "He was dropping his right." Rocky took some punishment,too, and he showed it. His nose was bleeding badly and there were cuts over and under both his eyes. "Joe's left jabs," he explained.  "What surprised me was that Joe didn't have much of a right. They told me he had lost some of his power, but I didn't expect nothing. That's what his right
hand was - nothing."
http://www.boxinggyms.com/news/marciano_louis1951/marciano_louis1951.htm
Don
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Don
Father Time had inevitiably caught up with Brother Joe Louis. That right hand knocked Jim Braddock and Johnny Paycheck into another time zone. Nice of Rocky to admit that 10 years earlier he wouldn't have been so lucky.
ONLY IN AMERICA!!
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

J.C.
Brion was Rocky Marciano's stablemate and sparring partner. He also fought Ezzard Charles. Brion was a tough fighter who generally lost against the best but always gave them a good scrap. You could say he was the early 1950s version of Jerry Quarry. He did get an impressive knockout over Tammi Maurellio however. That might be his biggest win.

He fought Louis twice and put up a gutsy performance on both occasions. Here is the rematch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeDsmIlC6Uo
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

49-0
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote

The heavyweight division was terrible at the time but Joe was just too old.
Ain't that sad? As weak as the division was, Joe was too old to do anything. But let's say he decided to keep boxing up-and-coming contenders. He might last long enough to fight Floyd Patterson, who would ultimately prove too much. Joe did well against Ezzard Charles (his age lost him the fight) but Patterson would be much too light and quick, plus he could punch.

To answer another question asked earlier I think Joe had enough technical skill and experience to beat Roland LaStarza. I don't think Roland was that good. He just knew how to handle the style of Rocky Marciano to a degree but he was completely outclassed in the rematch.

Now Archie Moore would beat old Louis. I'm certain of that. Both of them were old at the time but Archie was so slick and moved so well. Anyone agree? Disagree?
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Phantom Punch
In reply to this post by Duggerman
I hadn't paid much attention to Joe's final fights other than the ones against Marciano and Charles. This is interesting to watch. He's not the Louis of old but he can still take care of himself well and the fundamentals are there. Think he could pull it off against Tony Galento at this age? It's a fair question because he likely didn't have the skills to outbox him and finish him off like he did when he was younger and Galento's power was dangerous, yet Louis didn't have the power to hurt him this time.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Duggerman
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Phantom Punch wrote
Think he could pull it off against Tony Galento at this age? It's a fair question because he likely didn't have the skills to outbox him and finish him off like he did when he was younger and Galento's power was dangerous, yet Louis didn't have the power to hurt him this time.
Unfortunately a prime Galento would beat this version of Louis. All Louis had at this point was a decent enough jab and fierce left hook when he landed it right. He wouldn't be able to keep Galento off of him.
Galento had a great chin and Louis wouldn't be sharp enough to slam him with those vicious combinations this time.

@49-0. I agree that Archie Moore would be too good for Louis at this age. If Marciano and Ezzard beat Louis then so would Archie, but for different reasons. Still, it would be sad to see Louis used as a stepping stone to get to the title.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Left Hook From Hell...
Duggerman wrote

Unfortunately a prime Galento would beat this version of Louis. All Louis had at this point was a decent enough jab and fierce left hook when he landed it right. He wouldn't be able to keep Galento off of him.
Galento had a great chin and Louis wouldn't be sharp enough to slam him with those vicious combinations this time.

@49-0. I agree that Archie Moore would be too good for Louis at this age. If Marciano and Ezzard beat Louis then so would Archie, but for different reasons. Still, it would be sad to see Louis used as a stepping stone to get to the title.
I like where this thread is going. This makes me wonder which of Joe's victims would have succeeded against the old version? Surely Billy Conn would defeat this fading version of Louis. Maybe Max Baer and Jimmy Braddock too?
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Duggerman
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Left Hook From Hell... wrote
I like where this thread is going. This makes me wonder which of Joe's victims would have succeeded against the old version? Surely Billy Conn would defeat this fading version of Louis. Maybe Max Baer and Jimmy Braddock too?
Not sure about all that. Louis and Ali adapted pretty well to their declining skills in their later years. Louis was 37 when he lost to Rocky Marciano but he didn't embarrass himself that night and could have still beaten journeymen heavyweights. Louis was long past his best but he could have fought on against novice boxers for at least another year or two if he wanted to. He was still winning fights. Rocky was just too strong and had the style to beat him anyway with all that swarming.

On the other hand, Ali was absolutely shot by the time he got to Holmes and Berbrick. We never saw Louis deteriorate to that point as a fighter.

But hypothetically, a young prime Billy Conn would surely beat this old version of Louis. Old Louis would do better against Braddock and Baer but he shouldn't be the favorite. Louis had trouble with two styles - swarmers and runners. So 1950-51 Louis would be there for the taking against swarmers Galento and Godoy ( I know Galento was more of a brawler but he fought in close range) and movers and shakers like Conn, Pastor and Walcott.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Zorro
Well said, A.J.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Entaowed
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Evolution
Entaowed wrote
Yes, I agree with most of this, though Louis might still be favored against a crude slugger like Baer.
Baer hit too hard for old Louis and was a street fighter type like Marciano, just not a crowder. Louis depended on timing and speed for his counters and knockout blows and he lacked those by this time. Max Baer knocks him out early.

Seriously. At this stage what could Louis hold Baer off with? And with the revelation from Marciano that Joe's right hand was "nothing" he was essentially a one-handed fighter at this time.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Apollo
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In reply to this post by Duggerman
@ Dugger - Not sure if shot is the right term. IMO Ali was visibly sick by that point. He was just diagnosed in 1984. But who knows how long hes been having it, maybe in Zaire or Manilla already.

@ Evolution - Ali just like Louis also relied on speed and timing. Why do you think he was still able to beat Shavers and Lyle?
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Re: Joe Louis v. Cesar Brion

Duggerman
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Apollo Creed wrote
@ Dugger - Not sure if shot is the right term. IMO Ali was visibly sick by that point. He was just diagnosed in 1984. But who knows how long hes been having it, maybe in Zaire or Manilla already.

@ Evolution - Ali just like Louis also relied on speed and timing. Why do you think he was still able to beat Shavers and Lyle?
The sickness started showing shortly after Manilla.

I can't speak for Evolution but I see where he's coming from. Louis depended on speed, timing and a sense of distance to really hurt you and by this point he didn't have the speed or reflexes anymore. He said in his book that there were plenty of times he could have KO'd Ezzard Charles but he just couldn't get there in time.

Ali lost his speed but still did other things to win, like clinching, trying to steal rounds in the last 30 seconds, and having popularity with the judges in close fights.
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