Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

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Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Rosco
The Duggerman mentioned this in another thread. So we got the Brown Bomber versus Smokin' Joe Frazier!!

Photobucket




I actually think its a very even matchup.

They're about the same size weight wise; Louis has a small heigh advantage which is actually beneficial to both men. Frazier has a bigger target to attack/Frazier is in range for Louis' composite punches when he steps in.

can I imagine Frazier dropping Louis early with the left hook? Most definitely. Will Louis recover and put some hurt on Frazier? Most definitely.

IMO, even if we consider that Frazier wins the first fight, I'd have to go with history and say that in the 2nd fight Louis demolishes Frazier. That's what The Brown Bomber was like.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Bert Sugar
Who did Louis fight that was even really that similar to Frazier? I can't think of anybody. It's a really interesting match-up. Frazier could ko him, but i don't think it would happen. More like Louis takes his man out with a blistering barrage of Joe Louis specials.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
Administrator
In reply to this post by Rosco
Rosco wrote
Photobucket

Great pics! You can see in the second pic that Louis never lost his punching accuracy. He's playfully punching Frazier right on the chin.

But...that punching accuracy wouldn't be there against someone like Frazier who is constantly bobbing and weaving--Frazier was a hard target to hit flush on the chin...he's always ducking and countering.

Bert Sugar wrote
Who did Louis fight that was even really that similar to Frazier? I can't think of anybody.
I can. Rocky Marciano, Tony Galento and Arturo Godoy. Galento and Gudoy are not in the league of legends like Frazier and Marciano, but they pressured Louis and never gave him room to breathe by constantly crowding him.

Marciano fought an old Louis but Louis said that even in his prime he wouldn't beat Marciano because he hated to be crowded. Louis needed to set his balance and time his punches, and that's something that crowders never allowed him to do.

I can see Frazier slipping the Louis jab and countering with vicious left hooks to the body and the head, grunting upon impact. Louis would have to knock out Frazier early to have a chance but I don't think he could because Frazier would make him so uncomfortable.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Evan Fields
If Louis jumps on Frazier early it is Foreman-Frazier all over again.

After 4 rounds though.....Joe may have a chance. Louis was one of the best punchers ever, and an awesome finisher. Frazier was hurt many times but survived... could he against Louis?

I don't know, I don't think so.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Urban Legend
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
 Galento and Gudoy are not in the league of legends like Frazier and Marciano, but they pressured Louis and never gave him room to breathe by constantly crowding him.
I don't quite agree but I see where u r coming from. Tony Galento was just trying to brawl. Joe was outboxing him well. Galento's pressure was mild. It was his power that threatened Joe Louis. After Joe got knocked on his ass he got up and finished Tony quick.

On the other hand Arturo Godoy pressured Joe the first time by staying inside but Joe took him out with those uppercuts in the rematch. (the uppercut was the punch that spelled doom for Tony Galento too)

That uppercut would likely mess things up for Joe Frazier too. Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier are basically the same fighter, give or take a few differences. But had Rocky fought Joe in his prime, I think the Bomber would have "bombed him." I think Joe Louis would beat Frazier with little problem but he better be on his game that night because Joe would be smokin'. (And I ain't gonna be jokin)
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Evolution
Good thoughts here. I think Joe Louis would handle himself ok but not without a few scares. I've met Joe Frazier numerous times and I used to spar with Bert Cooper when Joe was training him. There are lots of similaries when you watch Bert Cooper and Joe Frazier on the attack.

Consider this: Joe Louis and Joe Frazier weighed the same at their peaks (205 pounds) Joe Louis isn't much taller than Joe Frazier. Frazier was 5'11, Louis was 6'1. They were close enough in size that Louis could go to war inside with Frazier. Ron Stander, George Chuvalo, and Jerry Quarry (first fight) were men who tried to beat Joe at his own game in a slugfest and failed. Joe Louis could mix it up well and I think he would stop Joe, probably before the 5th in an exciting war.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
Administrator
I could envision Louis fighting Frazier the same way Oscar Bonavena did--snap the jab in his face, plant your feet, and brawl when Frazier gets in close. Louis was more talented than Bonavena, but Bonavena was stronger. Frazier would back Louis up the way Marciano did. It would be easy for Frazier to maul Louis against the ropes and pound on him. I just don't see Louis winning this fight in the battle of the Joes.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Rosco
The real winner would be the crowd. I believe Joe (Louis) would pull it off. If they had a rematch Louis would do even better than the first time.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Evan Fields
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I could envision Louis fighting Frazier the same way Oscar Bonavena did--snap the jab in his face, plant your feet, and brawl when Frazier gets in close. Louis was more talented than Bonavena, but Bonavena was stronger. Frazier would back Louis up the way Marciano did. It would be easy for Frazier to maul Louis against the ropes and pound on him. I just don't see Louis winning this fight in the battle of the Joes.
Frazier didn't have the chin to survive against the Brown Bomber. You said yourself in another thread that Frazier was stunned by guys like Manuel Ramos, George Chuvalo, Ron Stander and others. Are these guys in the league of Joe Louis? No. Joe Louis punched faster, sharper, harder and more accurate than them.

Regarding Louis' chin I'm confident he would survive the barrage of left hooks Frazier is sure to hit him with. Louis was down a lot but he survived punches from real bangers like Max Baer, Tony Galento, Jimmy Braddock, Buddy Baer and others. Louis recovered quick when hurt. I see Louis knocking out Frazier other than the other way around.

You proved a good point about Oscar Bonavena who was probably the most frustrating opponent Joe ever fought. Louis would use those same tactics only far better.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

BAD INTENTIONS
In reply to this post by Evan Fields
The Gr8 One wrote
If Louis jumps on Frazier early it is Foreman-Frazier all over again.

After 4 rounds though.....Joe may have a chance. Louis was one of the best punchers ever, and an awesome finisher. Frazier was hurt many times but survived... could he against Louis?

I don't know, I don't think so.
I don't see this as being a repeat of the Foreman affair, nor even close for that matter. George Foreman and Joe Louis were two completely different types of hitters with different preferences for certain kinds of punches, and I don't think Louis had the type of power to send Frazier every which way but lose the way that George did. In addition, I really don't think that smoke would have to rise off the canvas six times as he did against Foreman. Louis hated swarmers and he disliked the left hook even more.. Take a man like Frazier who had faster hands than most men Louis fought, the best left hook of anyone he met, along with a lot of power, resliliance and myriad of other things, and Louis might be in trouble early.. Joe ( Frazier ) also had upper body movement that was off the charts for a heavyweight, unlike many of the stationary targets Louis enjoyed fighting.....

I would pick Frazier by a stoppage here, and not because he's the better fighter, but rather due to the fact that he is all wrong for the bomber in more ways than I even care to get into..
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
Administrator
BAD INTENTIONS wrote
Louis hated swarmers and he disliked the left hook even more.. Take a man like Frazier who had faster hands than most men Louis fought, the best left hook of anyone he met, along with a lot of power, resliliance and myriad of other things, and Louis might be in trouble early.. Joe ( Frazier ) also had upper body movement that was off the charts for a heavyweight, unlike many of the stationary targets Louis enjoyed fighting.....

I would pick Frazier by a stoppage here, and not because he's the better fighter, but rather due to the fact that he is all wrong for the bomber in more ways than I even care to get into..
 Brilliant. That's what I've been saying all along. Just because his name is Joe Louis doesn't mean he's automatically gonna win. Styles make fights.

Think about it objectively..what is flat footed Joe Louis gonna do when Frazier unloads on him like this?

<br />GIFSoup

Or this....

<br />GIFSoup
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Evan Fields
In reply to this post by BAD INTENTIONS
BAD INTENTIONS wrote
Joe ( Frazier ) also had upper body movement that was off the charts for a heavyweight, unlike many of the stationary targets Louis enjoyed fighting.....
<br />GIFSoup

Stationary? So now we're calling fast movers like Billy Conn, Joe Walcott or Bob Pastor 'stationary?' Those guys moved around constantly like annoying mosquitos which is why Louis had such an awful time fighting them. Frazier would be right in Louis' face and thats not where you wanna be.

Frazier was hard to hit with his bobbing and weaving but Joe would land. He would tear up Frazier's face like a meat grinder. Besides, Frazier was a slow starter and Louis was a quick starter when he wanted to be. Louis would knock him out early long before Joe starts smokin.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
Administrator
This has to be the most interesting debate we've had so far in the boxing forum. "I'm enjoying this!"

<br />GIFSoup
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Evan Fields
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
Think about it objectively..what is flat footed Joe Louis gonna do when Frazier unloads on him like this?

<br />GIFSoup

Or this....

<br />GIFSoup
Joe Louis would get up and get his revenge as he always did when he was put on the canvas.

The real question is what is Joe Frazier gonna do when Joe Louis unloads these Joe Louis Specials?

<br />GIFSoup

<br />GIFSoup

Joe Frazier was never hit by so many bonecrushers at once. Joe Louis stops him early. I reckon Frazier would try to get up to fight more but would be too shaky.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Zorro
The Gr8 One wrote
Joe Louis would get up and get his revenge as he always did when he was put on the canvas.

The real question is what is Joe Frazier gonna do when Joe Louis unloads these Joe Louis Specials?

<br />GIFSoup

<br />GIFSoup

Joe Frazier was never hit by so many bonecrushers at once. Joe Louis stops him early. I reckon Frazier would try to get up to fight more but would be too shaky.
Thats what happens when you stand in front of Joe Louis. I'm a big Frazier fan but all he is is a constant left hook and body banger. Joe Louis had so much more. Jersey Joe was doing terrific in that rematch until Joe stunned him with one punch before he could move away. After that vicious combination Jersey Joe was finished. With all due respect to Joe (Frazier) I think the other Joe had too much in his repertoire.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Urban Legend
Joe Frazier was the best in the world at what he did. He was a beast with that smothering style of his. But that style equals disaster when you plant yourself right in front of a puncher. Joe had knockout ability in both hands, an uppercut ready for crowders like Frazier, and a counter left hook of his own in close range.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

BAD INTENTIONS
In reply to this post by Evan Fields
The Gr8 One wrote
<br />GIFSoup

Stationary? So now we're calling fast movers like Billy Conn, Joe Walcott or Bob Pastor 'stationary?' Those guys moved around constantly like annoying mosquitos which is why Louis had such an awful time fighting them. Frazier would be right in Louis' face and thats not where you wanna be.

Frazier was hard to hit with his bobbing and weaving but Joe would land. He would tear up Frazier's face like a meat grinder. Besides, Frazier was a slow starter and Louis was a quick starter when he wanted to be. Louis would knock him out early long before Joe starts smokin.
You would call out the only three non-stationary boxers Joe Louis fought. Tommy Farr, Abe Simon, Max Baer, Buddy Baer, Rocky Marciano, Max Schmeling, Arturo Godoy, Tony Galento, Ezzard Charles, Primo Carnera, John Henry Lewis, and on and on and on are men that stood in front of Louis. They had different styles, some were brawlers, some boxers, some counter-punchers, some swarmers, but what they had in common is that they were in range for Louis to pick them off.

In a nose to nose phone booth fight I'm picking Joe Frazier to knock out Joe Louis. They both had quick hands on the inside but Frazier's lethal left would get the job done.

Tell me this also. Do you know of anyone Joe Louis fought that likes to work the body? Other than Rocky Marciano, none of Joe's opponents were body punchers. I know Joe was old when he fought Rocky but the fundamentals were still there. Rocky's body punching wore Louis down and he kept him pinned against the ropes and stayed on his ass. By the end of the 7th round Joe Louis was finished. He had taken a battering. Joe Frazier was better than Rocky Marciano in some ways. I think those left hook combinations from Frazier would seal the deal.

And hey, I'm thinking of both of them at their absolute best. Does the Joe Louis of the 1938 Schmeling rematch have what it takes to overcome the vicious Joe Frazier of 1971? No sir.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Shane
Joe Frazier is my favorite fighter but Joe Louis knocks him out. Joe Frazier was vulnerable to the heavy hitters and Joe Louis was arguably the best finisher in boxing. Frazier wouldn't keep getting up the way he did versus Foreman...Joe Louis would keep him on the canvas. Some of Louis' opponents had to be scraped off the canvas. He knocked people cold. It wouldn't surprise me if Frazier hurt Louis with his left hook but Louis had quick recouperative powers.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

Evan Fields
^^Add to that the fact that Marciano and Joe Frazier had similar styles and Rocky struggled like hell early on against old 37 year-old Joe Louis.
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Re: Joe Louis v. Joe Frazier

49-0
The Gr8 One wrote
^^Add to that the fact that Marciano and Joe Frazier had similar styles and Rocky struggled like hell early on against old 37 year-old Joe Louis.
Two different types of fighters.

Frazier was a rhythm fighter, an energiser bunny with a pin point left hook he could double up and land at any range. He weaved his head as much to transfer his weight from one foot to the other to launch a shot as opposed to avoiding a punch. If his head went down it was coming back up even if your punch was on its way.

Marciano countered his way in. where as Frazier led.

Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Frazier met you with a punch, it was already coming.

With Frazier what you saw was what you got. Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming. Both could fight all day but only rocky made his openings. Frazier had one gear flat out, straight at you. That's why he was such an easy target for George Foreman.

The Rock made his style work for him...he was very awkward...he dipped...you really didn't know where the punches were coming from...he looks beatable ..and you always have a plan...but when you enter the ring..and Rocky imposes his will on you...your fight plan goes out the window..and then you go into survival mode...and try to survive his onslaught.

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