Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Shane wrote
Muhammad sparred with Jose Torres. Unfortunately Jose did a horrible job here. Not a good representation of the peekaboo. The real Tyson would not crouch and eat all that leather.
Neither Jose nor Floyd Patterson were as effective using the peekaboo as prime Tyson, although I can see why some say Patterson used it best.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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I still favor Tyson to win. However I recently noticed something that goes in Ali's favor. Some tall fighters have a bad habit of ducking into an opponent's blows. The most obvious examples I can think of right now are Alex Stewart and Lennox Lewis. Stewart is 6'3. When he fought Tyson he kept trying to bob and weave, bringing himself down to Tyson's height and making it easier for Tyson to land his shots right on the button. As a result, Stewart was blown out in one round.

Lennox Lewis was guilty of this numerous times. He took blows in the Mercer fight and Holyfield rematch that he didn't have to take by bending down during the exchanges. If you're 6'5, why in the world are you ducking into your opponent's blows? As tall as Lewis is, he should have used his height to his advantage, making it harder for shorter guys to nail him flush on the chin. But then again, when you're getting hit in the body as often as he was in those fights, I can't be so hard on him. I imagine it's hard to keep your posture correct when a slugger with dynamite in his fists is attacking your ribs.

But that ties into what I'm about to say about Ali. Ali used his height to full advantage, even fighting up on his toes. Leaning his head back was a fundamental error because it offered his body and could make him vulnerable to feints, but it made him hard to hit flush on the chin. Ali never bent down to take blows, even when Joe Frazier was exploding on him with those vicious body punches. Ali always kept his head skyward as often as possible. If he could do it against Frazier, he could do it against Tyson.

Like I said earlier, Tyson's style, combined with Ali's fundamental mistakes would result in a savage Tyson knockout. But it wouldn't be easy for either guy. Ali would be hard to hit upstairs, but his body would be wide open and Tyson had a dangerous uppercut to blast his chin with.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
We disagree AJ, but ask yourself this: if Tyson could not down or KO other tall guys around his prime, & Ali had a great chin, was not afraid of Tyson, & he was only down before his peak & briefly in the end of the FOTC by a very busy Frazier-why would you presume a Tyson KO?
I've already explained in this thread numerous times why I feel Tyson would knock him out. Instead of repeating myself, I'm gonna post the first Ali-Chuvalo fight. Ali in was in prime yet Chuvalo, a limited heavyweight, managed to close the gap and score more often than not. He landed flush and rocked Ali on many occasions. If Chuvalo could do it so could Tyson and it would be much worse. Re-read some of my previous posts. I went into detail on everything you addressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRhBnojRQQM
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Apollo
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I can definitely see improvement in Mike's game each year starting in 1985.

James Tillis gave Mike technical problems in 1986. He showed that he had issues dealing with good jabbers. This fight was to Mike was Doug Jones was to Cassius Clay; they learned a lot through that.

In 1987 he a fought a similar fighter in Tony Tucker, he couldn't knock out Tucker but had less technical problems than he had against Tillis.

By 1988 Mike had fully grown into an advaned version of himself. He fought two jabbers that were even better than Tillis and Tucker - Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks. He rushed through Holmes and went all out despite the technical issues Larry was giving him.

Against Spinks, the same thing.

That's why I think that 1988 was Mike's prime. And that's why I think that 1986 Tyson might lose to Holyfield, Lewis and the Klitschko's. But the 1988 version of Mike would walk through them. Possibly even through Muhammad Ali who would probably beat 1986 Mike.

I think 1988 Mike Tyson knocks out 1974 George Foreman.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
Yes I recall your posts AJ.  You fairly could make an argument like that, as I can by seeing how a near & at peak Tyson could not KO less talented & slower HWs.  My only quibble, & it is a judgement call, is was Ali rocked, or rocked on "many occasions", in the 1st Chuvalo fight?  I saw it, maybe I am just not a good judge of this.  Now this was not a close fight, but yes, Chuvalo did land often.

Question is was Ali better, or had a better night, against Cleveland?  I know it was mostly a styles thing, but if we credit Tyson as being greater at least the night be beat Spinks, than say, Green fight not much earlier, we must go with the bext night ever for each of them.  So actually I would make this thread Ali in '66, since if anything this was his most dazzling performace.
Cleveland was just the kind of opponent perfect for Ali. He was big, plodding and slow. He was even slower because of his previous gunshot injury. Ali could always pick his spots against fighters like Liston, Terrell, Cleveland, etc. In fact Cleveland was so slow that Ali could briefly stop moving, plant his feet, rock him with punches, and then retreat. Ali was great, sure. But on that night he looked greater because of his opponent. Someone said in the Tyson-Douglas thread that Douglas only looked sensational because Tyson looked so slow and lazy. I agree with that. Tyson in Tokyo looked a lot like Cleveland Williams against Ali.

Chuvalo was a short swarmer and that style always gives Ali trouble because they slip his jab, cut the ring and close the gap. Ali was fast in his prime but that didn't make him unhittable. Karl Mildenberger landed on Ali but couldn't finish him. Chuvalo landed plenty on Ali but couldn't finish. Doug Jones gave Ali fits because Ali had no idea how to cut the ring or fight as the aggressor.

Those fundamental mistakes would always make Ali vulnerable to others. Sonny Liston wasn't smart enough to take note of it, but whenever he counter-jabbed Ali he almost always landed if you notice. When Liston jabbed first, Ali leaned back from it. But whenever Liston jabbed at Ali as Ali threw a jab, Sonny's jab would land flush. That's how Ken Norton gave Ali problems. The key to out-jabbing Ali is to jab with him. Sonny did it on accident a few times, but it was no accident when Norton did it. And Liston did this against prime Ali. It's a strategy that would have worked if Liston had applied it the way Norton did. The evidence is right there on film.

Tyson threw combinations, and Ali rarely had to deal with that. The one time he did, he was sent staggering into the ropes. Observe.

Photobucket

Frazier could have finished him but thought Ali was conning him. Ali was ready to be taken. And what had him so hurt? A Combination!! Even when Ali was past his prime, Norton, Shavers, Young, etc, none of them put together combinations. If the ropes hadn't caught Ali, he would have been knocked down by Frazier's double left hook. Most of Frazier's combinations were two punches; right hook to the body-left hook to the head, left jab--left hook, or the left hook to the body-left hook to the head. The point of Frazier's two-punch combos was to rattle you, catch you off guard or make you drop your hands with the first punch, then knock you silly with a finishing left hook to the head. That was the goal.

Mike Tyson had combinations that would sometimes run 5-6 punches long, each one landing right on the button and attacking both the head and body simultaneously with both fists. In his long career, Ali never had to deal with such a thing. I would pick Louis and Tyson to knock him out because of it. I just don't see Ali beating Tyson, especially given Ali's flaws, Tyson's combinations and that monster of an uppercut Tyson has. The Uppercut is something else Ali rarely got hit with.

Moejoe wrote
I can definitely see improvement in Mike's game each year starting in 1985.

James Tillis gave Mike technical problems in 1986. He showed that he had issues dealing with good jabbers. This fight was to Mike was Doug Jones was to Cassius Clay; they learned a lot through that.

In 1987 he a fought a similar fighter in Tony Tucker, he couldn't knock out Tucker but had less technical problems than he had against Tillis.

By 1988 Mike had fully grown into an advaned version of himself. He fought two jabbers that were even better than Tillis and Tucker - Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks. He rushed through Holmes and went all out despite the technical issues Larry was giving him.

Against Spinks, the same thing.

That's why I think that 1988 was Mike's prime. And that's why I think that 1986 Tyson might lose to Holyfield, Lewis and the Klitschko's. But the 1988 version of Mike would walk through them. Possibly even through Muhammad Ali who would probably beat 1986 Mike.

I think 1988 Mike Tyson knocks out 1974 George Foreman.
Interesting post my man. I think the problem with Tillis was that Tillis kept giving Tyson misdirection and firing his jab from odd angles. He looked like he couldn't make up his mind whether to copy Ali or Jersey Joe Walcott so he copied both. Tillis was a big man that kept the jab going and kept moving almost non-stop. He also never pulled a Andrew Stewart and foolishly ducked down into Tyson's shots. He used his height to full advantage. I still give the fight to Tillis, especially since Tyson basically gave up and stopped punching midway through the fight. In his fight with Mitch Green, Tyson kept attacking so he deserved the win.

I think Holmes would have been a tougher fight if he were younger. I think Tyson would always beat him however, due to Holmes not moving his head and dropping his left. Plus Tyson was a great finisher unlike the other guys that dropped Holmes. Holmes was fighting the same fight against Tyson that Mitch Green did--hold and run. He didn't get the jab going until the 4th round and was stopped in that round.

Tyson knocking out Foreman is a bold statement. Tyson has the speed to get there first and has more in his arsenal than Frazier, plus Foreman was more vulnerable to right hands than left hooks. Foreman has to be the favorite but I'd still pick Mike to close the gap and crush Foreman. When Tyson rushes him Foreman would back up...not a wise move.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zombies Ate Me
In reply to this post by Kid Dynamite
49-0 wrote
Tyson's uppercut came right up the middle inbetween your gloves and smashed through your chin. Ali had a terrific chin but would Tyson's uppercut rattle him? Possibly, and then Tyson would throw a left hook for the finish.
I could see that. That's a combination almost impossible to withstand and no one could throw it ferociously  like Tyson. But I still say Ali would have the ring smarts to clinch, lean on and smother Tyson as he tries to go for the kill. Ali recovered fast and knew how to survive. But you could argue he never faced a finisher as good as Tyson. Shavers had Ali rocked and didn't know what to do; Joe Frazier had Ali on the verge of being KO'd but held back because he thought Ali was goofing off. If Tyson caught and hurt Ali I think it would look similar to when Tyson had Holmes hurt but Ali might make it out alive.

I still say Ali survives when Tyson lands but it is true he never met a finisher as good as Tyson.


Kid Dynamite wrote
I've seen that before. Intriguing matchup this is, although I don't know why this is the #1 fantasy matchup on everyone's minds. There are so many other fantasy fights that would be more exciting. How about Jack Dempsey-Rocky Marciano? Lennox Lewis-George Foreman? Evander Holyfield-Razor Ruddock? To name a few...

I don't get involved in these Tyson-Ali debates too often. Muhammad had an ATG chin. But as AJ said several times, the style of Mike Tyson would also give Muhammad some problems. The short guys that get under his jab and pressure their way to get inside could sneak those left hooks to his unprotected jaw. What year did George Chuvalo fight Muhammad Ali? 1966? 1967? Wasn't that during his prime? Well, George landed an assload of big left hooks on Muhammad Ali but could never finish the job or seriously hurt him. Mike Tyson would do even better. And this was the PEAK Muhammad Ali.

Joe Louis said in his article "how i would have clobbered clay" that George Chuvalo and Karl Mindenburger had Muhammad in position to finish him but didn't know what to do. There's truth to that. Muhammad had weaknesses even during his peak.

You also have to look at his opposition at his peak. Consider his best performances..

Sonny Liston--Was old and undertrained for both fights. He threw the rematch. Prime Sonny would have performed better and prolly hurt Ali because he had the two punches to ruin Ali, a crushing left jab and a left hook.

Floyd Patterson--Was old and had back problems in '65 when he lost to Muhammad

George Chuvalo-- Not in Ali's league..

Cleveland Williams-- He was washed up and was shot a year before facing Muhammad. Though he'd probably never beat Ali anyway

Zorra Folley?-- Please

Mike's competition wasn't the best either but the more I think about it the more I see Tyson hurting Muhammad bad when he gets close.
Great post and this evens things out a bit. Ali and Tyson were two of the best boxers head to head in their primes but neither fought opponents to really give them a competitive match at their peaks. If only Ali could have fought Holmes, Frazier and some of the others in the 60s. And if only Tyson could have fought Lewis and Holyfield in the '80s.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Shane
Entaowed wrote

1) It is unintentionally misleading to say Chuvalo & Mildenburger "couldn't finish".  It implies Ali was ready to go, & folks will assume either fight was close which was not the case.  
Joe Louis said that Chuvalo and Mildenburger got their openings by mistake and "fouled it up." I don't think it means that Ali was ready to go per se, but that the window of opportunity to really do damage wasn't taken advantage of. When someone like Tyson or Louis has you hurt they won't let you escape. Ever.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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1) It is unintentionally misleading to say Chuvalo & Mildenburger "couldn't finish".  It implies Ali was ready to go, & folks will assume either fight was close which was not the case.  It is not that these guys were so deficient as much as the strange skill set, toughness & native talent like speed that thwarted guys.  Chivalo was good, not an elite world class fighter, though he like everyone got up for Ali-who said he "brought out the best" in others (& Frazier did this for him).  Karl was very good, the 1st lefty to fight for the title, this was a new challenge & tough for all.
Shane said what I was gonna say. Perhaps Chuvalo and Mildenburger wouldn't stop Ali. They had him in the danger zone but were's skilled or clever enough to finish him off. When someone like Tyson or Louis rocks you they immediately follow up with bone-crushing combinations at rapid speed with brutal power and perfect accuracy. Chuvalo and Mildenburger weren't great but they landed some good shots on Ali at his best when he was full of speed. If they can so could Tyson, Louis, Marciano, etc.

2) Ali was not in his prime yet against Jones, it would not be so close if held a couple years later.  He learned there, as you grant was true a few times with Tyson (Ribalta is another good example).
I think Jones would always give Ali trouble. Ali's fight against Jimmy Young was a repeat of his performance against Jones. Ali could not fight as the aggressor. He could not cut the ring. He was accustomed to countering and picking off guys as they came to him. Evander Holyfield had the same problem with Chris Byrd. He was used to being the guy doing the running and looked bad when he had to play "the hunter." Ali was green against Jones and old against Young, but even at his peak I don't see him doing well as an aggressor. He never fought that way. Ali said once that Walcott would give him problems. I think Billy Conn and Chris Bryd would also, because they'd give Ali a taste of his own medicine.

3) Ali made adjustments on the fly (though not well against Norton, but he was much slower then).  Liston counter jabbing would not likely give him the fight, but make it tougher.
Liston was aging against Ali and badly under-trained for the first fight. When you watch their first fight take a look at how Ali's rhythm was ruined when Sonny smashed him with the jab. If Sonny based his entire strategy off counter-jabbing Ali the way Norton did, I think he'd beat him, honestly. That's the best way to land that jab on Ali. Plus, as hated as Liston was, he was cheered when he fought Ali because Ali was more reviled than Liston. The fight would still be close and the biased judges might lean toward Sonny. But like I said earlier, it wouldn't happen because Sonny wasn't that smart. He just wanted to knock Ali out and fell into victim to Ali's bag of tricks in trying to do so. But watch the fight again and take note of how whenever Ali jabbed first and Sonny countered with his jab, it landed flush, just like Norton. It was when Sonny was aggressive and jabbed at Ali first that he made mistakes.

4) There is some truth to what you say about what Ali faced, but hold on a minute: Ali, who fought Professionally for over 2 decades through the greatest HW era ever, never faced basic challenges like decent combinations?  That sounds extreme.  Ali also thwarted combinations or reduced their efficacy, through speed, clinching, rope-a dope...Your position seems both somewhat fair yet overstated.
I'm being honest. Ali never faced someone with brilliant dynamite combinations like Tyson or Louis. Henry Cooper? Ernie Terrell? Zora Folley? Cleveland Williams? George Foreman? Sonny Liston? Ken Norton? None of Ali's opponents were as skilled in combination punches the way Tyson and Louis were. Floyd Patterson naturally had the same style as Tyson and used many of the same combinations, but he was past his prime both times he fought Ali. In the rematch he rocked Ali pretty good several times but was too old to really be a threat. Ali could take a big punch and would often clinch or do something wise to keep from getting hit again, but none of those guys were as quick or precise as Tyson or Louis when they threw combinations. Plus, Tyson and Louis attacked both the body and head. Ali wouldn't see the blows coming. Most guys go for the face again after they rock you. That's why Ali was so shocked by that Joe Frazier double left hook. He didn't see it coming and didn't have time to clinch or run. Ali's brains would be too shock up to clinch if Tyson hit him in the body, smashed him with the uppercut and then landed a left hook to the chin. Ali would be on the canvas. Keep in mind also that the left hook was the one punch Ali was always vulnerable to, and Tyson had one of the best left hooks in the history of the heavyweights. It was quick, hard and precise. Tyson knocked Trevor Berbrick down 3 times with one punch.

5) There was a great article we all read recently about how Ali would beat Louis, & I am confident it is correct.  Louis, however great his combinations, did not have the speed & swarming technique more likely to trouble him.  I am very surprised that thogh you rate The Brown Bomber so relatively low (#9), & he did not have a style most likely to thwart a boxer, you pick him head to head vs. ali.
I don't recall that article. But I pick Louis to beat Ali too. 15 rounds is a long time. Louis would get picked apart and look bad for most of it. He'd definitely be behind on the cards. But Ali was not "unhittable." Louis could cut the ring despite not being as aggressive as a Tyson or Frazier. Louis would catch Ali with hands low against the ropes or in a corner at some point. He'd whack him in the ribs when he'd get close enough. I don't believe Louis would never get an opening, especially when Ali's fundamental flaws are involved. Ali's habit of leaning back from blows would also be dangerous against Louis because Louis could feint him out. He'd fake a punch and when Ali's head is back in position Louis would nail him flush and then let loose with the Joe Louis specials. And Ali's hands would be down, making it easier for The Brown Bomber. Joe was too much of a technician for Ali. I rated Louis low because I pick several guys to beat him head to head. But Ali is not one of them.

6) Similarly in the Rock-Paper-Sissors style, sluggers beat swarmers, & in real life Cus had Tyson convinced Foreman is the one man who would devastate him!  And Tyson would least like to fight another slugger, Liston.  Now due to his speed & accuracy, I can see a pick for Tyson, though i favor peak Foreman.

But why on earth would you think that George would take a step back vs. Tyson?  Unless you mean to get punching room, which is not the same thing, + he used his great pushing strength to push folks like Frazier back, AND he would not need to vs. Tyson, who was more of a mid range, coming in guy, not an infighter.
When Tyson comes right at you, it's almost natural instinct to go backward because you don't wanna get hit. Watch Frazier-Foreman 1. When Frazier rushed out there slinging left hooks, what did Foreman do? What any smart man would do. Leap back!! When Frazier got close Foreman would shove him off, but Foreman was scared to death and admitted so. Foreman would not stand there and try to catch Tyson coming in. If we're talking peak Tyson here, Foreman would not land easy because of Tyson's head movement. I think Foreman would be a bit freaked when Tyson rushes him. Tyson would probably catch him against the ropes. The fight could go either way. Depends on who lands first. Again, Foreman is the favorite but I back Mike because of his speed, accuracy and hard punch. Foreman wouldn't know what hit him.

7) Only other quibble is that Ali was a lesser fighter, much less foot speed, by the FOTC.  Ali would win at least as many rounds as Frazier did if both at their peak, & unlikely Ali would be out on his feet.  Tyson would never be as busy as peak Frazier either, especially since he would not be dropping those very short hooks/infighting.  

Tyson COULD catch his with multi-combination bombs, but Ali also could stifle, frustrate, & drop a ton of leather on Tyson.  Though I have Tyson #2 all time head to head, & with his speed & short PEAK abilities, you can make a good case.
It would be a close fight. I've admitted myself earlier in this thread that Tyson attacked in spurts and then reset, allowing guys to clinch him or catch a breather. Teddy Atlas refers to this as "silent contracts." Ali would never go for that. When Tyson slows down Ali would let him have it! But again, a shootout with Tyson wouldn't be smart for Ali, especially if Tyson is in close. I mentioned the other day that Ali, like Holmes, used his height to full advantage and would not bend and duck down so Tyson could hit him easier. It would be a great fight for sure. Tyson wasn't as busy as Frazier but he was quicker and more powerful.

To go back to the Chuvalo comparison, if he could land all those shots on prime Ali so could Frazier and Tyson. There's no reason to believe they couldn't. Frazier could punch for sure, but it was more so his fast pace and relentless pressure that troubled Ali. (The left hook worked in his favor too). But against Tyson it wouldn't be the pace Ali had to worry about. It would be the swift destruction when Tyson opens up and lands on him.

I really don't think FOTC Ali was that slow. He was 29 and still in his prime. Frazier was just an animal and would have overcome most other heavyweights on that night. Ali tried to out-muscle Frazier and stop him early. When that failed he tried to dance but Frazier's body attacks slowed him down. In the 60s Ali never had to deal with a force like Frazier. Given the issues he had with Chuvalo I don't think he would win.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Sivul
Duggerman wrote
Liston was aging against Ali and badly under-trained for the first fight. When you watch their first fight take a look at how Ali's rhythm was ruined when Sonny smashed him with the jab. If Sonny based his entire strategy off counter-jabbing Ali the way Norton did, I think he'd beat him, honestly. That's the best way to land that jab on Ali. Plus, as hated as Liston was, he was cheered when he fought Ali because Ali was more reviled than Liston. The fight would still be close and the biased judges might lean toward Sonny. But like I said earlier, it wouldn't happen because Sonny wasn't that smart. He just wanted to knock Ali out and fell into victim to Ali's bag of tricks in trying to do so. But watch the fight again and take note of how whenever Ali jabbed first and Sonny countered with his jab, it landed flush, just like Norton. It was when Sonny was aggressive and jabbed at Ali first that he made mistakes.
Brilliant. I hadn't noticed that but you're absolutely right.

As for this fight (Ali versus Tyson) I pick Tyson by knockout.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Apollo
Banned User
In reply to this post by Shogun of Harlem
@ Dugger - From that I know, the Liston-Ali fight (first one) was numerical not a success. I don't know if that many people were cheering Liston or if Clay was known at that time at all.
I think you underestimate Ali's speed though. He was way too fast for Sonny, I don't know if a different usage of his jab would've changed much. He had the chance to do it in the rematch and basically quit.

I think Ali became a star AFTER that fight and the rematch, and also due to refusing going to war. But that's just mine impression - maybe someone who read books on Ali has some more infomation.
I also have the impression that Ali's fight during his run in the 1970ies were more famous - Frazier, Norton, Foreman - those are the real famous fights, everybody knows the Rumble in the Jungle. But Ali was physically way past his best at that time already.

I have a question for everybody - If your life depended on picking the outcome of Ali vs. Tyson - who do you pick?

I think I would confidently pick the man who always relied on his smarts. But I don't deny that I'd be intimidated by Tyson for the first time, lol.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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In reply to this post by Apollo
Moejoe wrote
@ Dugger - From that I know, the Liston-Ali fight (first one) was numerical not a success. I don't know if that many people were cheering Liston or if Clay was known at that time at all.
Clay was known, and hated! He was black and a bigmouth braggart. People paid money to see him fight hoping to see him lose. Ali got the idea from Gorgeous George, an arrogant heel wrestler from back in the day. The Liston-Ali fights were the only time Liston received cheers, but it was only because he was perceived as the lesser of two evils. Ali became a worldwide phenomenon when he KO'd Foreman. He could do no wrong after that. But in the 60's he was despised.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
 But Foreman was "scared to death" against Frazier?  No way.
Yes way. Foreman said so himself in many interviews. He said he started swinging out of fear. He also said he was scared that Frazier would get up and murder him! Remember when he said that he was glad Frazier never looked down in the pre-fight introductions because Foreman's knees were trembling?

To this day it's amazing that many people thought that first fight was a fluke initially. They thought Joe had an off night and George got lucky. If you noticed, Foreman ducked Frazier until 1976. He was supposed to give him an immediate rematch but instead fought Norton and Ali. He was scared, and Joe was pissed about it. Joe went over all this in his autobiography.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Sivul
Entaowed wrote
Maybe you are correct about FOreman having serious fear of Frazier Duggy, but I would like to see the cources.  Because I REFERRED to the knee-shaking comment that you just tried to tyell ME about, & said this was an obvious joke & exaggeration.  The truth may be somewhat between Cossell saying Foreman had no fear-almost all boxers do & it is healthy-& he was terrified.  I never heard Foreman was afraid to give Frazier a rematch, or why he did not,  I am open to hearing that.
Here is a link to where George said he was afraid of Frazier. He even said he hoped Joe would die so he wouldn't have to face him! But, you'll probably brush it off as George being gracious or overexaggerating. Regardless here it is from George himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl8hLRdbEJw

I never realized that Frazier was never given a title rematch. It makes sense though. I guess Foreman wanted to spend some time as champ and get some title defenses under his belt. He underestimated Ali though.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Evolution
In reply to this post by Shane
Shane wrote
Muhammad sparred with Jose Torres. Unfortunately Jose did a horrible job here. Not a good representation of the peekaboo. The real Tyson would not crouch and eat all that leather.
<center><iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6eMB-S6dj9g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></center>
The peek-a-boo with hand speed to match his own was something 1966 Ali had already dealt with. It wasn't Muhammad's stylistic kryptonite, as Norton's combination of style and temperament proved to be. [For whatever it's worth, ringside commentators also repeatedly noted that Ken looked slightly taller than Ali when they met in ring center for instructions.]

Without bringing the relentless pressure of a Frazier, Mike's lack of height and reach would be a serious handicap. Patterson and Jerry Quarry both had quick hands with short arms, and neither was able to compete in two attempts. Tyson was even shorter than they, and would have difficulty getting close [then getting tied up when he did].

If you want a short guy who might give Ali headaches, you can have Qawi, a strong and aggressive counter-jabber who could cut off the ring efficiently. [No, Dwight wouldn't beat him, but I've long believed this is one LHW who could take peak Ali the championship distance consistently. He had the Futch template for giving Muhammad what Lowry gave Marciano, and Whitehurst gave Liston.]
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

redfeng007
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Something to share. Dwayne Johnson aka the Rock have already answered you from his second movie, the Rundown. His movie character is Beck by the way.



                                                       The Rundown

MARIANA: Manito wants to know who you think would win a fight between Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali.
 
BECK (The Rock): Ali, hands down.

MARIANA: He says, what about Tyson's power?
 
BECK (The Rock): Shit. Tell him Ali would have done to Tyson what he did to Foreman in Africa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKlxiNol-9M
 
MANITO: Ah, Rumble. Rumble in the Jungle.
 
BECK (The Rock): Tell him Ali was too smart. Too smart, too fast. He would have used his jabs, bam, bam.

He would have danced, played with his mind. Before you know it, bam. left to the body, bam. right to the head. Down goes Tyson. Ali raised his arms to his fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbLfXGVGz-4

 
MANITO: Float like butterfly.
 
BECK (The Rock): Sting like bee.


Reference from http://www.quotefully.com/movie/The+Rundown
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
Administrator
redfeng007 wrote
Something to share. Dwayne Johnson aka the Rock have already answered you from his second movie, the Rundown. His movie character is Beck by the way.



                                                       The Rundown

MARIANA: Manito wants to know who you think would win a fight between Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali.
 
BECK (The Rock): Ali, hands down.

MARIANA: He says, what about Tyson's power?
 
BECK (The Rock): Shit. Tell him Ali would have done to Tyson what he did to Foreman in Africa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKlxiNol-9M
 
MANITO: Ah, Rumble. Rumble in the Jungle.
 
BECK (The Rock): Tell him Ali was too smart. Too smart, too fast. He would have used his jabs, bam, bam.

He would have danced, played with his mind. Before you know it, bam. left to the body, bam. right to the head. Down goes Tyson. Ali raised his arms to his fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbLfXGVGz-4

 
MANITO: Float like butterfly.
 
BECK (The Rock): Sting like bee.


Reference from http://www.quotefully.com/movie/The+Rundown
Left to the body? Since when does Ali throw body punches? lol. And I don't see Tyson going down from a left body shot and right hand to the head. He had a much better chin than that. He was good at slipping punches as he cut the ring and got inside.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

redfeng007
In reply to this post by Duggerman
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zombies Ate Me
redfeng007 wrote
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
We really are going in circles in this thread. Duggerman already addressed those exact fights. I vote we close this thread. It's run its course and we're just going in circles over and over talking about the same things.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
Administrator
I don't wanna close it because new people join the forum almost daily and who knows? Someone might have something unique to contribute outside of what's already been said. But I guess I'll explain those fights again.

redfeng007 wrote
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
Regarding the Tillis fight, it was a learning experience for Tyson. Tyson was still getting seasoned and wasn't accustomed to fighting guys that could move like that. Tillis' movement and jabbing from odd angles frustrated Tyson. I actually scored that fight in favor of Tillis. We have a thread about that topic here. Tyson would have done better if he'd fought Tillis a year later.

Tony Tucker had a hell of a chin. In fact it was Lennox Lewis who was the first to drop him, and that happened when Tucker was past his prime. Tyson could punch for sure, but he couldn't knock out everybody.

All Bonecrusher Smith did was hold Tyson all night. It looked like a high school sweetheart dance. Bonecrusher should have been DQ'd for all that holding.

Mitch Green fought a smart and cowardly fight all at once. He was smart because he never allowed Tyson to land combinations or consecutive bombs in a row. He also fought as a counterpuncher, not giving Tyson any real openings to finish him. But, he was cowardly because he ran and held all night. It's the same strategy Larry Holmes used against Tyson for the first three rounds. It's also the same strategy Muhammad Ali used against Joe Frazier in their rematch. But the irony is that people praised those "run and grab" tactics when Ali did it against Frazier, but criticized Mitch Green for it against Tyson. I scored Ali-Frazier II for Frazier just as I scored Tyson-Green for Tyson. Frazier and Tyson weren't allowed to cut loose in those fights but they forced the action.

Buster Douglas. Tyson did not train for this fight. He said he was "going through those Japanese girls like grapes." He was showing flab on his stomach. Also, Tyson wasn't the same after he fired Kevin Rooney. He wasn't throwing combinations, working the body, or moving his head. Plus his timing was off. He still had speed and power but his accuracy, timing, defense and ability to cut the ring were way off. This was nothing like the Mike Tyson of 1988. Buster was motivated but Tyson's mistakes caught up with him that night.

Now for Ali. If you read this thread you'll see my dozens of posts of why I pick Tyson. But I'll keep this one short and sweet.

1) Ali lacked the fundamentals of boxing. You don't lean back from punches or fight with your hands down against Iron Mike.

2) Ali had an iron chin but never took shots flush from dynamite combination punchers like Tyson. The one time Ali took a combination from someone (Joe Frazier) he went staggering into the ropes and would have been KO'd if the ropes hadn't caught him. (This was in round 11 of Ali-Frazier 1). Ali could withstand a big blow. Shavers, Norton, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Chuvalo, etc. They each caught Ali with a big punch but didn't follow up with another immediate punch to put him out. Tyson and Joe Louis put together 5-6 punch combinations to the body and head - each blow landing precisely on the button at lighting speed with thunderous power.

3) Ali had trouble with swarmers. Joe Frazier was a perfect example. A guy that cuts the ring and works the body gave Ali nightmares. Ali would move well early on but those body punches would slow him down by the middle rounds and make him an easier target. I pick the style of Tyson to beat Ali. I also pick Marciano to beat him. It's no coincidence that the Computer Fight with Marciano played out nearly identical to The Fight of The Century with Joe Frazier two years later. The computer knew Rocky's style could beat Ali.

4) Some people on here (particularly Entaowed and Dale) are impressed with Ali's speed. I'm not, because in Ali's prime he was hit more often than you think. George Chuvalo landed quite often on Tyson and had him temporarily dazed in the 13th round but didn't know how to follow up or finish. Karl Mildenberger hurt Ali too but didn't know how to finish him either. These fights were in Ali's absolute prime and two average fighters managed to land on him. If they could hit Ali, so could Tyson and Marciano and the results would be much worse for Ali.

I have tremendous Ali because of what he did for Civil Rights and in the ring. He's a hero to many people. But he wasn't unbeatable in his prime. There is a lot more to a Tyson-Ali fight than meets the eye.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Left Hook From Hell...
Duggerman wrote
I don't wanna close it because new people join the forum almost daily and who knows? Someone might have something unique to contribute outside of what's already been said. But I guess I'll explain those fights again.

redfeng007 wrote
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
Regarding the Tillis fight, it was a learning experience for Tyson. Tyson was still getting seasoned and wasn't accustomed to fighting guys that could move like that. Tillis' movement and jabbing from odd angles frustrated Tyson. I actually scored that fight in favor of Tillis. We have a thread about that topic here. Tyson would have done better if he'd fought Tillis a year later.

Tony Tucker had a hell of a chin. In fact it was Lennox Lewis who was the first to drop him, and that happened when Tucker was past his prime. Tyson could punch for sure, but he couldn't knock out everybody.

All Bonecrusher Smith did was hold Tyson all night. It looked like a high school sweetheart dance. Bonecrusher should have been DQ'd for all that holding.

Mitch Green fought a smart and cowardly fight all at once. He was smart because he never allowed Tyson to land combinations or consecutive bombs in a row. He also fought as a counterpuncher, not giving Tyson any real openings to finish him. But, he was cowardly because he ran and held all night. It's the same strategy Larry Holmes used against Tyson for the first three rounds. It's also the same strategy Muhammad Ali used against Joe Frazier in their rematch. But the irony is that people praised those "run and grab" tactics when Ali did it against Frazier, but criticized Mitch Green for it against Tyson. I scored Ali-Frazier II for Frazier just as I scored Tyson-Green for Tyson. Frazier and Tyson weren't allowed to cut loose in those fights but they forced the action.

Buster Douglas. Tyson did not train for this fight. He said he was "going through those Japanese girls like grapes." He was showing flab on his stomach. Also, Tyson wasn't the same after he fired Kevin Rooney. He wasn't throwing combinations, working the body, or moving his head. Plus his timing was off. He still had speed and power but his accuracy, timing, defense and ability to cut the ring were way off. This was nothing like the Mike Tyson of 1988. Buster was motivated but Tyson's mistakes caught up with him that night.

Now for Ali. If you read this thread you'll see my dozens of posts of why I pick Tyson. But I'll keep this one short and sweet.

1) Ali lacked the fundamentals of boxing. You don't lean back from punches or fight with your hands down against Iron Mike.

2) Ali had an iron chin but never took shots flush from dynamite combination punchers like Tyson. The one time Ali took a combination from someone (Joe Frazier) he went staggering into the ropes and would have been KO'd if the ropes hadn't caught him. (This was in round 11 of Ali-Frazier 1). Ali could withstand a big blow. Shavers, Norton, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Chuvalo, etc. They each caught Ali with a big punch but didn't follow up with another immediate punch to put him out. Tyson and Joe Louis put together 5-6 punch combinations to the body and head - each blow landing precisely on the button at lighting speed with thunderous power.

3) Ali had trouble with swarmers. Joe Frazier was a perfect example. A guy that cuts the ring and works the body gave Ali nightmares. Ali would move well early on but those body punches would slow him down by the middle rounds and make him an easier target. I pick the style of Tyson to beat Ali. I also pick Marciano to beat him. It's no coincidence that the Computer Fight with Marciano played out nearly identical to The Fight of The Century with Joe Frazier two years later. The computer knew Rocky's style could beat Ali.

4) Some people on here (particularly Entaowed and Dale) are impressed with Ali's speed. I'm not, because in Ali's prime he was hit more often than you think. George Chuvalo landed quite often on Tyson and had him temporarily dazed in the 13th round but didn't know how to follow up or finish. Karl Mildenberger hurt Ali too but didn't know how to finish him either. These fights were in Ali's absolute prime and two average fighters managed to land on him. If they could hit Ali, so could Tyson and Marciano and the results would be much worse for Ali.

I have tremendous Ali because of what he did for Civil Rights and in the ring. He's a hero to many people. But he wasn't unbeatable in his prime. There is a lot more to a Tyson-Ali fight than meets the eye.
Very informative.  What about Mike's stamina? Prime Ali could dance for 15 rounds. Could Tyson go the limit? I keep hearing that he was a front runner. Is it possible he gases out after 4 rounds and Ali schools him?
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
This post was updated on .
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
Administrator
Entaowed wrote
You scored Ali Frazier 2 for Frazier?  Also, Ali was hit with plenty of combinations by Frazier in their fights, though it was in the 11th in the FOTC where he was hurt & playing possum.
I sure did. We have a thread on it here. Ali-Frazier II was the same fight as Tyson-Green, only Ali was a wee bit more assertive than Green at times. If Ali won that rematch, then Mitch Green should have beaten Tyson. They fought the same fight - running and holding.

We're going in circles because I already addressed all these things. Frazier was only a two-punch combination puncher. When have you seen Frazier threw a five-punch barrage like Tyson or Louis? I'm a huge Frazier fan and I don't recall seeing him throw even a three-piece combination. Tell me one time you saw Joe Frazier throw a multiple punch combination and I'll reverse my statement.

Ali was never hit with consecutive big bombs from a puncher all at once. It's just a fact. Maybe he could withstand it, maybe he couldn't. We'll never know, but based off Frazier hurting him in the 11th with that double hook, I think he'd be in trouble. By the way, he wasn't playing possum. He was hurt, but Frazier thought Ali was playing so he played it safe.

@Left Hook From Hell. Tyson had good stamina. But it is fair to say that he's less dangerous late in the fight. The latest knockout he ever had was in round 10 versus Jose Ribalata. You outta watch that one. Jose gave peak Tyson his toughest fight. Everyone else held, ran or got KO'd. Jose fought him.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Left Hook From Hell...
Duggerman wrote
@Left Hook From Hell. Tyson had good stamina. But it is fair to say that he's less dangerous late in the fight. The latest knockout he ever had was in round 10 versus Jose Ribalata. You outta watch that one. Jose gave peak Tyson his toughest fight. Everyone else held, ran or got KO'd. Jose fought him.
I'll check that one out. Thank you.

Mike Tyson looked awesome knockin fools out early but in the (few) fights I've seen where he went the distance he got beat. I wanna see him in a real war that goes the distance so I'm looking forward to this Ribalata fight. If Mike fades in the fight Ali whoops him good. But if he keeps it up wouldn't it be like the fights with Joe Frazier? Mike Tyson fought really similar to Joe..
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Hit Em' Hard
Left Hook From Hell... wrote
I'll check that one out. Thank you.

Mike Tyson looked awesome knockin fools out early but in the (few) fights I've seen where he went the distance he got beat. I wanna see him in a real war that goes the distance so I'm looking forward to this Ribalata fight. If Mike fades in the fight Ali whoops him good. But if he keeps it up wouldn't it be like the fights with Joe Frazier? Mike Tyson fought really similar to Joe..
Ribalta was the only guy to make a real effort against Mike when he was peaking. James Tillis frustrated Mike as well but he didn't stand there and duke it out all night with Mike the way Ribalta did.

Even though Mike's skills were already fading by this point, check out the two fights with Razor Ruddock, especially the rematch. That was the biggest war Mike ever been in.

Your avatar is making me drool. I wanna plow that ass so bad..
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zorro
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
You scored Ali Frazier 2 for Frazier?  I hate all the holding Ali did, but I do not see Frazier having won it.  SOme say Frazier was ready to go in round 2 then & got a break.  I did not see Ali really hurt against Mildenburger, though could have missed it.  Also, Ali was hit with plenty of combinations by Frazier in their fights, though it was in the 11th in the FOTC where he was hurt & playing possum.

They had various endings for the computer fight, tailored for the audiences.  Sure Frazier could & did beat Ali (who alo was lax in the middle & gave away several rounds he maybe could have won).  But no, an Ali that was out of the game for years  sat down on his punches more, but was slower (especiallyof foot), was NOT prime Ali.  

Chuvalo & Mildenburger (confounding southpaw style) were good contenders in their primes, not average fighters.  Though I can easily see how someone could pick the combos speed & power of Tyson, though he did not have the punch volume of some.

Tyson did have good endurance at is peak, though some say he slowed down in later rounds.  How he could go in a torrid 15 rounder is unsure.
I'm starting to think you're a robot programmed to repeat the same things. Everything you said here has been addressed I don't know how many times.

Ali was hit with volleys by Chuvalo, Norton and some others. But these are not the combinations Duggerman speaks of. He's talking about a dynamite puncher who lands 3-6 devastating blows all at once at terrific speed and each one landing flush. Only Joe Louis, Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson were good at doing this. Joe Frazier had a hard punch but his combinations only consisted of two punches, most of them ending with a left hook. Frazier's double left hook is not a combination compared to Tyson's body punch-uppercut-left hook-right hook-uppercut combo. That's a combination. Watch Tyson finish Bruno.

Muhammad Ali was never hit like that by a slugger. The big punchers he fought would hit him good one time, or as in Frazier's case, sometimes with a two-punch combination. Muhammad never took combinations so we'll never know how he'd take em'. It's like wondering if Gene Tunney would have survived the long count if the ref counted normal. We'll never know because it never happened.

Muhammad was not playing possom in round 11 of The FOTC. And yes, Ali was hit in his prime by less talented fighters. If they can land on prime Ali, so can Iron Mike.

I know you. You like to challenge people's thinking. And that is fine. You actually changed my mind on a few things. But this is making the thread repetitive and dull. You're bringing up the same things and forcing people to repeat themselves.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Urban Legend
Zorro wrote
I'm starting to think you're a robot programmed to repeat the same things. Everything you said here has been addressed I don't know how many times.
Yeah it is getting old. But this relates to what I said in the Morrison-Foreman thread.

Morrison had a good chin. He took bombs from Foreman for 12 rounds. But when he fought punchers who landed punch after punch at one time in Mercer and Lewis, he got knocked out. Morrison could take a big punch at a time, but combinations and barrages proved to be his undoing. Same thing with Pinklon Thomas. He took Mike Tyson's shots well but it wasn't until Tyson hit him with 7 or 8 consecutive hooks in a row that he went down. If Tyson had landed that many punches on Mitch Green he would have went out too.

Whether Ali could take punishment like that is a question mark. We know he could shake off a big punch. But we don't know how he would react if someone like Tyson got to him with one of his finishing barrages.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
Administrator
Entaowed wrote
Now I am sorry about any repetition.  Yet something like not seeing Mildenburger hurt him was an observation.   I MISSPOKE when I said Ali was playing possum-I meant that he was hurt & pretending otherwise, but the phrase actually means otherwise.  And while "multiple" or a combination means anything beyond a single blow, I guess if the bigger combinations are defined as all very fast, NOT just, say, a high work rate OR the finishing barrages when clubbing, not speedy, I do not know that Frazier threw those bigger combinations.

I would have to look closely at Ali-Frazier 2.  I decry all the holding there, with Klitchko, & Mitch Green.  Though my IMPRESSION was that Ali at least landed a lot more blows compared to Green.  So while Ali should have been warned & if he did not stop been disqualified for excessive holding, if that was not done I do not see how Frazier gets the win.

Yes, it is unknown how Ali deals with the biggest combination attacks by the best guys.  And if Tyson could land them, if Ali could evade & smother him & deliver punishment until Tyson tired significantly.
Karl Mildenburger and George Chuvalo both caught Ali good but didn't know how to follow through with it. Even Joe Louis commented on it.

"The kid has speed and there’s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I’d see to it that Clay didn’t stay in ring center. No. He’d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he’d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I’d press him, cut down his speed, and bang him around the ribs. I’d punish the body. “Kill the body and the head will die”, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he’d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn’t reckon to miss when it arrived. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him.”

Furthermore, even Henry Cooper landed quite a few hooks on Ali during their rematch. You could argue Ali was green in the first fight, but in the rematch Ali was at his best and Henry still caught him. If he could catch him so could Tyson.

You're technically right when you say that anything more than a single blow could be considered a combination but it isn't always so. Combinations are planned. Barrages are not combinations. What David Tua did to John Ruiz was not a combination. What Ray Mercer did to Tommy Morrison was not a combination. What Evander Holyfield did to George Foreman was not a combination. Those were just a high volume barrage of punches that finished the job. (Except, of course, in the Holyfield-Foreman fight).

A real combination is what Lewis used to knock out Francois Botha. Muhammad Ali never got hit like that in his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIpE_jKbw34

Or how Buster Douglas finished Mike Tyson. (Uppercut, left, right, left)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt8LZ8FjGN8

Or how Joe Louis knocked out Billy Conn (left to the body, right uppercut, left and right to the chin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zOuvmZXiHg

Those are examples of combinations. Did Joe Frazier ever hit Ali like that? Nope. Ken Norton? Nope. George Foreman? Nope. Sonny Liston? Nope. Henry Cooper? Nope. I hope you see what I mean now so we can finally put this argument to bed.

I know Ali's your man and if you've got him picked, that's cool. But seeing Ali's reaction to win he took that double left from Frazier in 1971 leads me to believe that he would have been in trouble had he fought a real combination puncher like Tyson or Louis. And those guys were the best finishers ever.

I want you to notice one more thing also. Did you notice that in each of the combination examples I showed, the victim never leaned on or clinched his attacker? That's the thing about combinations. Those punches are fast, precise, and hard. Your brain won't have the time to register what's going on. Ali got hit plenty of times with one big blow but could clinch and survive. That wouldn't be an option if someone were hitting him with combinations.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zorro
Duggerman wrote
I want you to notice one more thing also. Did you notice that in each of the combination examples I showed, the victim never leaned on or clinched his attacker? That's the thing about combinations. Those punches are fast, precise, and hard. Your brain won't have the time to register what's going on. Ali got hit plenty of times with one big blow but could clinch and survive. That wouldn't be an option if someone were hitting him with combinations.
You are a boxing scientist.  In all my years of enjoying the sweet science I never noticed that. Whenever Tyson, Louis or even Floyd Patterson let go with those combinations, their opponents had no chance. They went nowhere but down. They didn't have time to clinch or smother because they kept getting hit!

Larry Holmes tried like hell to clinch Tyson when he was getting hurt but we saw how that turned out. The same would happen to Ali.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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