Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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redfeng007 wrote
Something to share. Dwayne Johnson aka the Rock have already answered you from his second movie, the Rundown. His movie character is Beck by the way.



                                                       The Rundown

MARIANA: Manito wants to know who you think would win a fight between Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali.
 
BECK (The Rock): Ali, hands down.

MARIANA: He says, what about Tyson's power?
 
BECK (The Rock): Shit. Tell him Ali would have done to Tyson what he did to Foreman in Africa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKlxiNol-9M
 
MANITO: Ah, Rumble. Rumble in the Jungle.
 
BECK (The Rock): Tell him Ali was too smart. Too smart, too fast. He would have used his jabs, bam, bam.

He would have danced, played with his mind. Before you know it, bam. left to the body, bam. right to the head. Down goes Tyson. Ali raised his arms to his fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbLfXGVGz-4

 
MANITO: Float like butterfly.
 
BECK (The Rock): Sting like bee.


Reference from http://www.quotefully.com/movie/The+Rundown
Left to the body? Since when does Ali throw body punches? lol. And I don't see Tyson going down from a left body shot and right hand to the head. He had a much better chin than that. He was good at slipping punches as he cut the ring and got inside.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

redfeng007
In reply to this post by Duggerman
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zombies Ate Me
redfeng007 wrote
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
We really are going in circles in this thread. Duggerman already addressed those exact fights. I vote we close this thread. It's run its course and we're just going in circles over and over talking about the same things.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
Administrator
I don't wanna close it because new people join the forum almost daily and who knows? Someone might have something unique to contribute outside of what's already been said. But I guess I'll explain those fights again.

redfeng007 wrote
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
Regarding the Tillis fight, it was a learning experience for Tyson. Tyson was still getting seasoned and wasn't accustomed to fighting guys that could move like that. Tillis' movement and jabbing from odd angles frustrated Tyson. I actually scored that fight in favor of Tillis. We have a thread about that topic here. Tyson would have done better if he'd fought Tillis a year later.

Tony Tucker had a hell of a chin. In fact it was Lennox Lewis who was the first to drop him, and that happened when Tucker was past his prime. Tyson could punch for sure, but he couldn't knock out everybody.

All Bonecrusher Smith did was hold Tyson all night. It looked like a high school sweetheart dance. Bonecrusher should have been DQ'd for all that holding.

Mitch Green fought a smart and cowardly fight all at once. He was smart because he never allowed Tyson to land combinations or consecutive bombs in a row. He also fought as a counterpuncher, not giving Tyson any real openings to finish him. But, he was cowardly because he ran and held all night. It's the same strategy Larry Holmes used against Tyson for the first three rounds. It's also the same strategy Muhammad Ali used against Joe Frazier in their rematch. But the irony is that people praised those "run and grab" tactics when Ali did it against Frazier, but criticized Mitch Green for it against Tyson. I scored Ali-Frazier II for Frazier just as I scored Tyson-Green for Tyson. Frazier and Tyson weren't allowed to cut loose in those fights but they forced the action.

Buster Douglas. Tyson did not train for this fight. He said he was "going through those Japanese girls like grapes." He was showing flab on his stomach. Also, Tyson wasn't the same after he fired Kevin Rooney. He wasn't throwing combinations, working the body, or moving his head. Plus his timing was off. He still had speed and power but his accuracy, timing, defense and ability to cut the ring were way off. This was nothing like the Mike Tyson of 1988. Buster was motivated but Tyson's mistakes caught up with him that night.

Now for Ali. If you read this thread you'll see my dozens of posts of why I pick Tyson. But I'll keep this one short and sweet.

1) Ali lacked the fundamentals of boxing. You don't lean back from punches or fight with your hands down against Iron Mike.

2) Ali had an iron chin but never took shots flush from dynamite combination punchers like Tyson. The one time Ali took a combination from someone (Joe Frazier) he went staggering into the ropes and would have been KO'd if the ropes hadn't caught him. (This was in round 11 of Ali-Frazier 1). Ali could withstand a big blow. Shavers, Norton, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Chuvalo, etc. They each caught Ali with a big punch but didn't follow up with another immediate punch to put him out. Tyson and Joe Louis put together 5-6 punch combinations to the body and head - each blow landing precisely on the button at lighting speed with thunderous power.

3) Ali had trouble with swarmers. Joe Frazier was a perfect example. A guy that cuts the ring and works the body gave Ali nightmares. Ali would move well early on but those body punches would slow him down by the middle rounds and make him an easier target. I pick the style of Tyson to beat Ali. I also pick Marciano to beat him. It's no coincidence that the Computer Fight with Marciano played out nearly identical to The Fight of The Century with Joe Frazier two years later. The computer knew Rocky's style could beat Ali.

4) Some people on here (particularly Entaowed and Dale) are impressed with Ali's speed. I'm not, because in Ali's prime he was hit more often than you think. George Chuvalo landed quite often on Tyson and had him temporarily dazed in the 13th round but didn't know how to follow up or finish. Karl Mildenberger hurt Ali too but didn't know how to finish him either. These fights were in Ali's absolute prime and two average fighters managed to land on him. If they could hit Ali, so could Tyson and Marciano and the results would be much worse for Ali.

I have tremendous Ali because of what he did for Civil Rights and in the ring. He's a hero to many people. But he wasn't unbeatable in his prime. There is a lot more to a Tyson-Ali fight than meets the eye.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Left Hook From Hell...
Duggerman wrote
I don't wanna close it because new people join the forum almost daily and who knows? Someone might have something unique to contribute outside of what's already been said. But I guess I'll explain those fights again.

redfeng007 wrote
If James Tillis could jab well against Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjBpat8Y83M



If Tony Tucker can dance around Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_p4Yz9d_7Q



If James Smith could frustrate Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuz3O7GMa0



If Mitch Green can counter punch Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk6WHinLGTA



If Buster Doglus could KO Prime Tyson, how much can Prime Ali do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswWWeG28Fc
Regarding the Tillis fight, it was a learning experience for Tyson. Tyson was still getting seasoned and wasn't accustomed to fighting guys that could move like that. Tillis' movement and jabbing from odd angles frustrated Tyson. I actually scored that fight in favor of Tillis. We have a thread about that topic here. Tyson would have done better if he'd fought Tillis a year later.

Tony Tucker had a hell of a chin. In fact it was Lennox Lewis who was the first to drop him, and that happened when Tucker was past his prime. Tyson could punch for sure, but he couldn't knock out everybody.

All Bonecrusher Smith did was hold Tyson all night. It looked like a high school sweetheart dance. Bonecrusher should have been DQ'd for all that holding.

Mitch Green fought a smart and cowardly fight all at once. He was smart because he never allowed Tyson to land combinations or consecutive bombs in a row. He also fought as a counterpuncher, not giving Tyson any real openings to finish him. But, he was cowardly because he ran and held all night. It's the same strategy Larry Holmes used against Tyson for the first three rounds. It's also the same strategy Muhammad Ali used against Joe Frazier in their rematch. But the irony is that people praised those "run and grab" tactics when Ali did it against Frazier, but criticized Mitch Green for it against Tyson. I scored Ali-Frazier II for Frazier just as I scored Tyson-Green for Tyson. Frazier and Tyson weren't allowed to cut loose in those fights but they forced the action.

Buster Douglas. Tyson did not train for this fight. He said he was "going through those Japanese girls like grapes." He was showing flab on his stomach. Also, Tyson wasn't the same after he fired Kevin Rooney. He wasn't throwing combinations, working the body, or moving his head. Plus his timing was off. He still had speed and power but his accuracy, timing, defense and ability to cut the ring were way off. This was nothing like the Mike Tyson of 1988. Buster was motivated but Tyson's mistakes caught up with him that night.

Now for Ali. If you read this thread you'll see my dozens of posts of why I pick Tyson. But I'll keep this one short and sweet.

1) Ali lacked the fundamentals of boxing. You don't lean back from punches or fight with your hands down against Iron Mike.

2) Ali had an iron chin but never took shots flush from dynamite combination punchers like Tyson. The one time Ali took a combination from someone (Joe Frazier) he went staggering into the ropes and would have been KO'd if the ropes hadn't caught him. (This was in round 11 of Ali-Frazier 1). Ali could withstand a big blow. Shavers, Norton, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Chuvalo, etc. They each caught Ali with a big punch but didn't follow up with another immediate punch to put him out. Tyson and Joe Louis put together 5-6 punch combinations to the body and head - each blow landing precisely on the button at lighting speed with thunderous power.

3) Ali had trouble with swarmers. Joe Frazier was a perfect example. A guy that cuts the ring and works the body gave Ali nightmares. Ali would move well early on but those body punches would slow him down by the middle rounds and make him an easier target. I pick the style of Tyson to beat Ali. I also pick Marciano to beat him. It's no coincidence that the Computer Fight with Marciano played out nearly identical to The Fight of The Century with Joe Frazier two years later. The computer knew Rocky's style could beat Ali.

4) Some people on here (particularly Entaowed and Dale) are impressed with Ali's speed. I'm not, because in Ali's prime he was hit more often than you think. George Chuvalo landed quite often on Tyson and had him temporarily dazed in the 13th round but didn't know how to follow up or finish. Karl Mildenberger hurt Ali too but didn't know how to finish him either. These fights were in Ali's absolute prime and two average fighters managed to land on him. If they could hit Ali, so could Tyson and Marciano and the results would be much worse for Ali.

I have tremendous Ali because of what he did for Civil Rights and in the ring. He's a hero to many people. But he wasn't unbeatable in his prime. There is a lot more to a Tyson-Ali fight than meets the eye.
Very informative.  What about Mike's stamina? Prime Ali could dance for 15 rounds. Could Tyson go the limit? I keep hearing that he was a front runner. Is it possible he gases out after 4 rounds and Ali schools him?
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
You scored Ali Frazier 2 for Frazier?  Also, Ali was hit with plenty of combinations by Frazier in their fights, though it was in the 11th in the FOTC where he was hurt & playing possum.
I sure did. We have a thread on it here. Ali-Frazier II was the same fight as Tyson-Green, only Ali was a wee bit more assertive than Green at times. If Ali won that rematch, then Mitch Green should have beaten Tyson. They fought the same fight - running and holding.

We're going in circles because I already addressed all these things. Frazier was only a two-punch combination puncher. When have you seen Frazier threw a five-punch barrage like Tyson or Louis? I'm a huge Frazier fan and I don't recall seeing him throw even a three-piece combination. Tell me one time you saw Joe Frazier throw a multiple punch combination and I'll reverse my statement.

Ali was never hit with consecutive big bombs from a puncher all at once. It's just a fact. Maybe he could withstand it, maybe he couldn't. We'll never know, but based off Frazier hurting him in the 11th with that double hook, I think he'd be in trouble. By the way, he wasn't playing possum. He was hurt, but Frazier thought Ali was playing so he played it safe.

@Left Hook From Hell. Tyson had good stamina. But it is fair to say that he's less dangerous late in the fight. The latest knockout he ever had was in round 10 versus Jose Ribalata. You outta watch that one. Jose gave peak Tyson his toughest fight. Everyone else held, ran or got KO'd. Jose fought him.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Left Hook From Hell...
Duggerman wrote
@Left Hook From Hell. Tyson had good stamina. But it is fair to say that he's less dangerous late in the fight. The latest knockout he ever had was in round 10 versus Jose Ribalata. You outta watch that one. Jose gave peak Tyson his toughest fight. Everyone else held, ran or got KO'd. Jose fought him.
I'll check that one out. Thank you.

Mike Tyson looked awesome knockin fools out early but in the (few) fights I've seen where he went the distance he got beat. I wanna see him in a real war that goes the distance so I'm looking forward to this Ribalata fight. If Mike fades in the fight Ali whoops him good. But if he keeps it up wouldn't it be like the fights with Joe Frazier? Mike Tyson fought really similar to Joe..
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Hit Em' Hard
Left Hook From Hell... wrote
I'll check that one out. Thank you.

Mike Tyson looked awesome knockin fools out early but in the (few) fights I've seen where he went the distance he got beat. I wanna see him in a real war that goes the distance so I'm looking forward to this Ribalata fight. If Mike fades in the fight Ali whoops him good. But if he keeps it up wouldn't it be like the fights with Joe Frazier? Mike Tyson fought really similar to Joe..
Ribalta was the only guy to make a real effort against Mike when he was peaking. James Tillis frustrated Mike as well but he didn't stand there and duke it out all night with Mike the way Ribalta did.

Even though Mike's skills were already fading by this point, check out the two fights with Razor Ruddock, especially the rematch. That was the biggest war Mike ever been in.

Your avatar is making me drool. I wanna plow that ass so bad..
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zorro
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
You scored Ali Frazier 2 for Frazier?  I hate all the holding Ali did, but I do not see Frazier having won it.  SOme say Frazier was ready to go in round 2 then & got a break.  I did not see Ali really hurt against Mildenburger, though could have missed it.  Also, Ali was hit with plenty of combinations by Frazier in their fights, though it was in the 11th in the FOTC where he was hurt & playing possum.

They had various endings for the computer fight, tailored for the audiences.  Sure Frazier could & did beat Ali (who alo was lax in the middle & gave away several rounds he maybe could have won).  But no, an Ali that was out of the game for years  sat down on his punches more, but was slower (especiallyof foot), was NOT prime Ali.  

Chuvalo & Mildenburger (confounding southpaw style) were good contenders in their primes, not average fighters.  Though I can easily see how someone could pick the combos speed & power of Tyson, though he did not have the punch volume of some.

Tyson did have good endurance at is peak, though some say he slowed down in later rounds.  How he could go in a torrid 15 rounder is unsure.
I'm starting to think you're a robot programmed to repeat the same things. Everything you said here has been addressed I don't know how many times.

Ali was hit with volleys by Chuvalo, Norton and some others. But these are not the combinations Duggerman speaks of. He's talking about a dynamite puncher who lands 3-6 devastating blows all at once at terrific speed and each one landing flush. Only Joe Louis, Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson were good at doing this. Joe Frazier had a hard punch but his combinations only consisted of two punches, most of them ending with a left hook. Frazier's double left hook is not a combination compared to Tyson's body punch-uppercut-left hook-right hook-uppercut combo. That's a combination. Watch Tyson finish Bruno.

Muhammad Ali was never hit like that by a slugger. The big punchers he fought would hit him good one time, or as in Frazier's case, sometimes with a two-punch combination. Muhammad never took combinations so we'll never know how he'd take em'. It's like wondering if Gene Tunney would have survived the long count if the ref counted normal. We'll never know because it never happened.

Muhammad was not playing possom in round 11 of The FOTC. And yes, Ali was hit in his prime by less talented fighters. If they can land on prime Ali, so can Iron Mike.

I know you. You like to challenge people's thinking. And that is fine. You actually changed my mind on a few things. But this is making the thread repetitive and dull. You're bringing up the same things and forcing people to repeat themselves.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Urban Legend
Zorro wrote
I'm starting to think you're a robot programmed to repeat the same things. Everything you said here has been addressed I don't know how many times.
Yeah it is getting old. But this relates to what I said in the Morrison-Foreman thread.

Morrison had a good chin. He took bombs from Foreman for 12 rounds. But when he fought punchers who landed punch after punch at one time in Mercer and Lewis, he got knocked out. Morrison could take a big punch at a time, but combinations and barrages proved to be his undoing. Same thing with Pinklon Thomas. He took Mike Tyson's shots well but it wasn't until Tyson hit him with 7 or 8 consecutive hooks in a row that he went down. If Tyson had landed that many punches on Mitch Green he would have went out too.

Whether Ali could take punishment like that is a question mark. We know he could shake off a big punch. But we don't know how he would react if someone like Tyson got to him with one of his finishing barrages.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
Now I am sorry about any repetition.  Yet something like not seeing Mildenburger hurt him was an observation.   I MISSPOKE when I said Ali was playing possum-I meant that he was hurt & pretending otherwise, but the phrase actually means otherwise.  And while "multiple" or a combination means anything beyond a single blow, I guess if the bigger combinations are defined as all very fast, NOT just, say, a high work rate OR the finishing barrages when clubbing, not speedy, I do not know that Frazier threw those bigger combinations.

I would have to look closely at Ali-Frazier 2.  I decry all the holding there, with Klitchko, & Mitch Green.  Though my IMPRESSION was that Ali at least landed a lot more blows compared to Green.  So while Ali should have been warned & if he did not stop been disqualified for excessive holding, if that was not done I do not see how Frazier gets the win.

Yes, it is unknown how Ali deals with the biggest combination attacks by the best guys.  And if Tyson could land them, if Ali could evade & smother him & deliver punishment until Tyson tired significantly.
Karl Mildenburger and George Chuvalo both caught Ali good but didn't know how to follow through with it. Even Joe Louis commented on it.

"The kid has speed and there’s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I’d see to it that Clay didn’t stay in ring center. No. He’d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he’d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I’d press him, cut down his speed, and bang him around the ribs. I’d punish the body. “Kill the body and the head will die”, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he’d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn’t reckon to miss when it arrived. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him.”

Furthermore, even Henry Cooper landed quite a few hooks on Ali during their rematch. You could argue Ali was green in the first fight, but in the rematch Ali was at his best and Henry still caught him. If he could catch him so could Tyson.

You're technically right when you say that anything more than a single blow could be considered a combination but it isn't always so. Combinations are planned. Barrages are not combinations. What David Tua did to John Ruiz was not a combination. What Ray Mercer did to Tommy Morrison was not a combination. What Evander Holyfield did to George Foreman was not a combination. Those were just a high volume barrage of punches that finished the job. (Except, of course, in the Holyfield-Foreman fight).

A real combination is what Lewis used to knock out Francois Botha. Muhammad Ali never got hit like that in his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIpE_jKbw34

Or how Buster Douglas finished Mike Tyson. (Uppercut, left, right, left)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt8LZ8FjGN8

Or how Joe Louis knocked out Billy Conn (left to the body, right uppercut, left and right to the chin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zOuvmZXiHg

Those are examples of combinations. Did Joe Frazier ever hit Ali like that? Nope. Ken Norton? Nope. George Foreman? Nope. Sonny Liston? Nope. Henry Cooper? Nope. I hope you see what I mean now so we can finally put this argument to bed.

I know Ali's your man and if you've got him picked, that's cool. But seeing Ali's reaction to win he took that double left from Frazier in 1971 leads me to believe that he would have been in trouble had he fought a real combination puncher like Tyson or Louis. And those guys were the best finishers ever.

I want you to notice one more thing also. Did you notice that in each of the combination examples I showed, the victim never leaned on or clinched his attacker? That's the thing about combinations. Those punches are fast, precise, and hard. Your brain won't have the time to register what's going on. Ali got hit plenty of times with one big blow but could clinch and survive. That wouldn't be an option if someone were hitting him with combinations.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zorro
Duggerman wrote
I want you to notice one more thing also. Did you notice that in each of the combination examples I showed, the victim never leaned on or clinched his attacker? That's the thing about combinations. Those punches are fast, precise, and hard. Your brain won't have the time to register what's going on. Ali got hit plenty of times with one big blow but could clinch and survive. That wouldn't be an option if someone were hitting him with combinations.
You are a boxing scientist.  In all my years of enjoying the sweet science I never noticed that. Whenever Tyson, Louis or even Floyd Patterson let go with those combinations, their opponents had no chance. They went nowhere but down. They didn't have time to clinch or smother because they kept getting hit!

Larry Holmes tried like hell to clinch Tyson when he was getting hurt but we saw how that turned out. The same would happen to Ali.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Left Hook From Hell...
I know (or am assuming) that the closest fighter to Mike Tyson that Muhammad Ali fought was Joe Frazier. Am I wrong on that? And, answer me this. Who was the closest fighter to Ali that Tyson fought? I wanna see these fights and compare even though it won't be the real thing. Stylewise I wanna see it.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Left Hook From Hell... wrote
I know (or am assuming) that the closest fighter to Mike Tyson that Muhammad Ali fought was Joe Frazier. Am I wrong on that? And, answer me this. Who was the closest fighter to Ali that Tyson fought? I wanna see these fights and compare even though it won't be the real thing. Stylewise I wanna see it.
Tyson fought a lot of Muhammad Ali wannabes. Tyrell Biggs did a great Ali impersonation against Tyson until he got hit. Then he went into survival mode and famously cried like a woman when Tyson struck him in the body.

Larry Holmes was a Muhammad Ali protege but he was old and undertrained when he fought Tyson. Even in his prime I'd pick Tyson to beat him. Larry had good mobility and hand speed, but neither in the league of Muhammad Ali.

Strangely, the person who fought the best Ali-esque fight against Tyson was James "Quick" Tillis. Like Ali, he ran around a lot and was difficult to pin down. Also, he attacked as he ran and did it from weird angles, giving Tyson plenty of problems. Tillis was one of the first ranked opponents Tyson fought and he'd never faced a big man that could move like that, so it was a learning experience. Had they fought a year or two later, a more experienced Tyson would have done much better.

James Buster Douglas fought a lot like Muhammad Ali too. He would run, then briefly plant his feet to nail Tyson with hard, crisp combinations. Then before Tyson could retaliate, Buster jumped out of reach. Buster also caught Tyson at will with double and triple jabs. Tyson couldn't catch him. The only thing Buster didn't do was the Ali shuffle. LOL!! But to be fair, Tyson wasn't at his peak anymore and didn't take Douglas half as seriously as he should have.

So, imo, Tillis and Douglas were the closest to Ali's style that Tyson fought. But since they either caught him approaching his peak (Tillis) or after it (Douglas) I don't think it should count. 1988 Tyson would have plowed through both of them easily.

To answer your other question, I'd say Frazier is without doubt the closest thing to Mike Tyson that Ali ever fought. Frazier fought at a faster pace than Tyson, but Tyson had more things for Ali to worry about, including combinations, right hands and uppercuts. All Ali had to deal with in Frazier was a fierce work rate, intense pressure, constant body blows and brutal left hook counters. Tyson had a bigger arsenal of knockout punches than Frazier did.

But it all comes full circle because at the end of the day, Ali never fought a Tyson and Tyson never fought an Ali.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Like I said earlier in the thread, Ali never faced anyone with an uppercut like Mike Tyson. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who landed an uppercut on Ali! Tyson wasn't as aggressive as Frazier and he didn't throw as high a volume of punches, but he brought with him a fierce left hook (Ali's worst enemy) combinations, fantastic hand speed, and a variety of blows Ali rarely (if ever) had to deal with. I pick Mike to beat Ali. Just my opinion.

As for the layoff, I think it was Frazier's style that beat him and always would, all things being fair. I pick Marciano, Frazier and Tyson to beat Ali..not Jack Dempsey because he was a fast starter and would be prone to getting outboxed in later rounds. Marciano, Tyson and Frazier had the patience and attack to ground Ali down and get a decision or late knockout. Even at his peak Ali was hit by Chuvalo, Mildenberger and Cooper. (Cooper even caught Ali quite a few times in the rematch). All of this was during Ali's prime.

I'm not going to get too deep because this is stuff I've said before. I'm probably gonna take a breather from this thread because it's like watching the same rerun over and over.

NOTE: Just so you know, Mike Tyson isn't my favorite boxer. I've said numerous times that Joe Frazier is my favorite heavyweight champion, and David Tua is my favorite boxer. I'm just being honest when I say Mike was the best head to head. That doesn't mean he's my favorite boxer. I just feel that at his peak he was the best.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Hit Em' Hard
In reply to this post by Left Hook From Hell...
Left Hook From Hell... wrote
I know (or am assuming) that the closest fighter to Mike Tyson that Muhammad Ali fought was Joe Frazier. Am I wrong on that? And, answer me this. Who was the closest fighter to Ali that Tyson fought? I wanna see these fights and compare even though it won't be the real thing. Stylewise I wanna see it.
Ali fought Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, Joe Frazier and Floyd Patterson, all of whom had the Tyson blueprint. Of all of them Floyd Patterson had the style closest to Iron Mike because they had the same teacher and style. So the best fights to watch to make an Ali-Tyson simulation would be the Ali-Patterson fights. BUT Floyd wasn't as strong as Mike, lacked courage and was past his physical prime in both fights with Ali.

The closest fighter to Ali that Tyson fought was Buster Douglas but we've already established that Tyson really beat himself that night.
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