Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Entaowed
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Tyson also had a brutal left hook, the punch Ali was vulnerable to his entire career. I still say Iron Mike wins, but it wouldn't be a cakewalk for either guy. I can't see Ali embarrassing peak Tyson.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Rosco
Tyson had a crushing left hook but not on the level of Joe Frazier. I do agree with you that Ali was suspect to that particular punch. George Chuvalo landed thousands on left hooks on Ali when they fought for the first time in the 1960s. So I'm sure Tyson would land on Ali from time to time. But I can't see him beating him although Tyson would win some rounds with the crowd gasping at the destructive blows he lands.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Bert Sugar
Tyson only had a five year prime. That was it. But during those five years he was a force to be reckoned with. But, after seeing him struggle against Mitch Green, Tony Tucker and some of the others, you get the inkling that he had problems with bigger men. Ali is a big man with more physical gifts than Mitch "Blood" Green and the like. I pick Ali but you never know what would happen when and if Tyson lands. Tyson was a great finisher. Only Joe Louis was a better finisher.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Kid Dynamite
In reply to this post by KB50MJ
KB50MJ wrote
ESPN did a little debate on this subject. Pretty interesting: http://youtu.be/ONnXnpk96Pk
I've seen that before. Intriguing matchup this is, although I don't know why this is the #1 fantasy matchup on everyone's minds. There are so many other fantasy fights that would be more exciting. How about Jack Dempsey-Rocky Marciano? Lennox Lewis-George Foreman? Evander Holyfield-Razor Ruddock? To name a few...

I don't get involved in these Tyson-Ali debates too often. Muhammad had an ATG chin. But as AJ said several times, the style of Mike Tyson would also give Muhammad some problems. The short guys that get under his jab and pressure their way to get inside could sneak those left hooks to his unprotected jaw. What year did George Chuvalo fight Muhammad Ali? 1966? 1967? Wasn't that during his prime? Well, George landed an assload of big left hooks on Muhammad Ali but could never finish the job or seriously hurt him. Mike Tyson would do even better. And this was the PEAK Muhammad Ali.

Joe Louis said in his article "how i would have clobbered clay" that George Chuvalo and Karl Mindenburger had Muhammad in position to finish him but didn't know what to do. There's truth to that. Muhammad had weaknesses even during his peak.

You also have to look at his opposition at his peak. Consider his best performances..

Sonny Liston--Was old and undertrained for both fights. He threw the rematch. Prime Sonny would have performed better and prolly hurt Ali because he had the two punches to ruin Ali, a crushing left jab and a left hook.

Floyd Patterson--Was old and had back problems in '65 when he lost to Muhammad

George Chuvalo-- Not in Ali's league..

Cleveland Williams-- He was washed up and was shot a year before facing Muhammad. Though he'd probably never beat Ali anyway

Zorra Folley?-- Please

Mike's competition wasn't the best either but the more I think about it the more I see Tyson hurting Muhammad bad when he gets close.



 
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zorro
I found this amazing documentary about a potential fight between Ali and Tyson. Eddie Futch, Bert Sugar, Teddy Atlas, Steve Lott, Angelo Dundee, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and a lot of others examine their styles and who would have won. It's three parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jxmiXonfQ

http://youtu.be/GXRTT8vduBs

http://youtu.be/BcZoIka4fqw
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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This post was updated on .
Zorro wrote
I found this amazing documentary about a potential fight between Ali and Tyson. Eddie Futch, Bert Sugar, Teddy Atlas, Steve Lott, Angelo Dundee, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and a lot of others examine their styles and who would have won. It's three parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jxmiXonfQ

http://youtu.be/GXRTT8vduBs

http://youtu.be/BcZoIka4fqw
This was great!! Brilliantly done. Two things that stand out..

They used the Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield fights to showcase Tyson's weaknesses. That's not fair because Tyson didn't train properly for Douglas and was 30 against Holyfield. Not only was he past his peak but Holyfield was his best opponent after serving three years in the slammer.

They proved a good point about something though. Tyson would "agree" to clinches with taller men when he lost interest. He wasn't as aggressive as Frazier--Tyson would throw a big combination and if you withstood it somehow, he'd stop punching and let you clinch him. Ali had to clinch Frazier because it was the only way to break his rhythm. Frazier wouldn't stop attacking. When Tyson slows down, Ali would let him have it.

I still say Mike wins but it is a difficult fight for both. Great documentary. I think everyone hear should take a look.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Friday The 13th...
In reply to this post by Zorro
Zorro wrote
I found this amazing documentary about a potential fight between Ali and Tyson. Eddie Futch, Bert Sugar, Teddy Atlas, Steve Lott, Angelo Dundee, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and a lot of others examine their styles and who would have won. It's three parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jxmiXonfQ

http://youtu.be/GXRTT8vduBs

http://youtu.be/BcZoIka4fqw
Holy smokes that was a great documentary! Very sound analysis by all involved. I'm gonna pass this on, gentlemen.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

precious
In reply to this post by Zorro
Excellent documentary Zorro, looking forward to seeing part 4 which he says will be posted in a few days
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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I'm looking forward to part 4 as well. I wonder why this great documentary was never released? I can tell it's old, though. This has to be from the '90s.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

precious
In reply to this post by Kid Dynamite
Nice to see a bit of balanced criticism of Ali's opposition, you've made some valid points. Tyson detractors seem to imply a Unanimous points win is somehow a failure or a struggle, expecting him to knock everyone out, which is unrealistic.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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In reply to this post by Rosco
Rosco wrote
Tyson would win some rounds with the crowd gasping at the destructive blows he lands.
That's something I can absolutely see happening.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zombies Ate Me
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Duggerman
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Entaowed wrote
VERY good part four, thank you.  

Mr. Duggerman would beg to differ with the analysis that Tyson "won every minute of every round" with those "weaker" fights uring his prime.  That seems like a big exaggeration, & AJ thought he LOST one of them.

OTOH, Tyson did not have "no jab".  
I admire Steve Lott for being the only one to routinely root for Tyson in this special. But I think he's right in a sense. In Tyson's "bad" performances, the other guy would spend most of the time clinching. Tyson would land bombs, then reset or get clinched. The only fight he lost in my opinion was the Tillis fight. Tyson threw less and less punches as the fight progressed but Tillis kept firing and running. Tyson deserved to win against Green, Tucker and Bonecrusher Smith though. He didn't have the workmanship of a Joe Frazier, but he forced the action and deserved the decision in those fights. Tyson wasn't busy enough, but the other guys did even less.

Angelo Dundee was so biased. Of course Tyson had a jab. He'd jab his way in as he bobbed and weaved. His jab was very effective in helping him close the gap. I also dislike how they kept focusing on the Buster Douglas fight to highlight Tyson's weaknesses. He didn't train for that fight, nor was he focused. If that's the case, then they should have focused on Ali's first fight with Leon Spinks when he was under-trained and overconfident going in.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Friday The 13th...
Was Ali ever hit by someone with a big uppercut? Tyson's uppercut was just as destructive as his hooks. Seeing Ali survive big hooks from Frazier and Shavers leads me to believe that perhaps he could take Tyson's hooks but it's the uppercut that worries me. I don't recall ever seeing Muhammad Ali take an uppercut.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

49-0
Man_Eater wrote
Was Ali ever hit by someone with a big uppercut? Tyson's uppercut was just as destructive as his hooks. Seeing Ali survive big hooks from Frazier and Shavers leads me to believe that perhaps he could take Tyson's hooks but it's the uppercut that worries me. I don't recall ever seeing Muhammad Ali take an uppercut.
Thats a good observation, actually. Of all his opponents I think its safe to say that Joe Frazier landed more punches on Ali than anyone else but his style was more hook-oriented. Yeah he threw jabs and uppercuts sometimes but those hooks of his were serious business.

Rocky Marciano had a great uppercut. If you watch his fight with Joe Louis, he set up the finishing right hand with a left uppercut. But against Ali in the computer fight most of the head punches were pulled, so I doubt Rocky landed his uppercut on Ali. Very good point you have there. Tyson's uppercut came right up the middle inbetween your gloves and smashed through your chin. Ali had a terrific chin but would Tyson's uppercut rattle him? Possibly, and then Tyson would throw a left hook for the finish.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Zorro
Ali was tough. He might have his brains shook up if Tyson landed that uppercut. But if Holyfield could withstand it, so could Ali. Now if Tyson landed a hook or two right after the uppercut, he stands a chance of knocking Ali out. But the uppercut wouldn't do it alone against Ali.
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Re: Muhammad Ali (1967) Versus Mike Tyson (1988)

Alexander
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
That's right. Put them both in their peak years. How does this one go?

Iron Mike. He used to get inside and devastate guys.
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