Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

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Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
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Does Joe "smoke" him, or is Riddick too big and strong?

Personally, I could see either guy winning. Joe could beat Bowe half to death with all his relentless attack and punishment to the ribs. Manilla, anyone?

But Bowe was a big guy and he could crack. Evander Holyfield has said numerous times that no one hurt him the way Riddick Bowe did. Bowe could also fight really well on the inside, which could benefit him in an up-close slugfest with Joe. (Ali couldn't fight well on the inside when Joe closed the gap, which is why he clinched so much).

This one could winner go either way and I'm not too comfortable picking a winner. But I favor Joe because an upclose slugfest would be to his advantage, but there's always that possibility that Riddick might land one hard punch too many.



Bowe v. Frazier
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Left Hook From Hell...
Why don't you ask Eddie Futch? He trained both guys and knows their secrets.

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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
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Left Hook From Hell... wrote
Why don't you ask Eddie Futch? He trained both guys and knows their secrets.
I would love to do that! But I don't think he'd have much to say....



Anyway, the more I think about this fight, the more I favor Joe. Riddick could be sloppy and lazy at times, and Joe is the last person you wanna get careless with. Joe came into each fight in great condition and gave it is absolute best effort each time, hence his winning results. He worked hard. Riddick didn't work enough.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Zorro
Duggerman wrote
Anyway, the more I think about this fight, the more I favor Joe. Riddick could be sloppy and lazy at times, and Joe is the last person you wanna get careless with. Joe came into each fight in great condition and gave it is absolute best effort each time, hence his winning results. He worked hard. Riddick didn't work enough.
This is why I pick Joe to win this one by TKO. People really underestimate Joe Frazier. He really was one of the all time greats. He was small but he pounded you and never stopped. He was one of the hardest hitters ever. I'll never forget sitting in the audience that night watching him pound the crap out of Jerry Quarry. I can still hear those thuds now.

Riddick had a good jab but Joe knew how to avoid those well. He was good at evading the jab of Muhammad Ali, who had a much better jab than Riddick. I like Riddick Bowe but Joe Frazier would overcome him and use Bowe's massive size against him.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Zombies Ate Me
Bowe struggled against opponents around his size. Joe would be too little. It would be a grueling war but eventually Joe goes down for the count.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

BIG BAD BIONIC BOY
This is why we have different weight classes in this sport. Joe was really a cruiserweight. A tough cruiserweight, yes. But a cruiserweight nonthe less. And we saw what happened when he fought the bigger guys like Ali, Foreman, Bonavena and others. He won some of them, yes, but he struggled to do so.

Frazier would not last half as long as Holyfield did against Bowe.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Entaowed
This is very hard to pick.  You can make a case either way.

Joe Frazier was the greater fighter overall.  He also had a much better work ethic.
Though later in his career Joe could be complacent & was too heavy in the 220's.  Also he was a pretty big drinker, that could not have helped.  Still he exceeded Bowe in these categories, though Bwe had plenty of heart.

The size issue is important.  How much difference it would make is the question.

In their first bout Holyfield came in at 205.  This was exactly what Frazier weighed in the FOTC.
Though their builds were very different.  Holyfield about 4" taller & longer/wingspan.
With a better developed torso & even lower bodyfat.  Frazier having much bigger legs.

In the HBO commentary leading up to the 2nd fight, it was said Holyfield assumed he could easily take Bowe, so did not work as hard as usual, even was reluctant to spar enough.

A marked difference is in #2, Holyfield looked like he put on about zero bodyfat, but weighed 217.

I recall him scaling exactly this & the same as Tyson when they fought.
I think at least given his tendency to go to war with larger men too much, he needed this extra muscle to hold his own & win.
                            Also the Fan Man incident may have been decisive rer: a reprieve for him, who knows.


Bowe & Frazier would likely go like the 3 Holyfield-Bowe fights, in terms of engagement.

Because Bowe not only loved a good scrape, he was unusually fond of, & effective at, close quarters combat for a big man.

BBBB, let's take a closer look at Frazier vs. Big Men.

I agree.  Even with a non-ATG Bugner (but still excellent, Ali thought he would be champion some day), it was no picnic.  Being much smaller is hard-though less so in the unlimited class due to the law of diminishing returns.

I favor Ali at peak against Joe.  But Ali was a unique fighter, jab, his movement, volume punching, & ability to MOVE far exceeds any version of Bowe.

Foreman was a powerhouse ho had a great uppercut & got away with illegal shoving.
This was a stylistic nightmare for Frazier, & all but insurmountable when you throw in Frazier's little noted loss of the ability to land coming in & diminished foot speed after FOTC.

Bowe does not have Foreman's power.  Evolution did not even find it impressive (though said it may have developed somewhat later).

Frazier relied on getting in close to do his war of attrition damage.
Bowe did not have a great defense.
They would engage in an absolute war.

I do not see Bowe being able to finish Frazier off.  Though he might well put him down at least once-likely he would.

Frazier was better the second time he fought Bonavena.
We need to go peak vs. peak, & Bowe's was short.

I would favor Frazier-though not greatly.  In a trilogy, he would get 2.
I could be wrong & it could go the other way, like Bowe vs. Holyfield.

But if you do not have elite punching power vs. Frazier, AND you are gonna engage him a great deal on the inside & missing top flight, Ali-esque speed footwork--->It is very tough to beat prime Joe Frazier.

I believe that Frazier's excellent work rate would wear down Bowe late.

If Bowe is fit as in the first fight vs. Evanderthe weight disparity is 30 lbs. max, all due to height.
Actually at the same height, Frazier would weigh more.



Decision or late TKO.


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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
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^^Agreed.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Evolution
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
Bowe does not have Foreman's power.  Evolution did not even find it impressive (though said it may have developed somewhat later).
I'm surprised you all still remember my old posts and still value my opinion. Thank you.

But I fought Bowe when we were both young and skinny amateurs. I'm sure he grew into his power later.

If Muhammad Ali didn't hold so much, he likely would not have survived Manilla and the 1974 fight. The clinching and holding Joe behind the neck slowed Joe's pace and rhythm while also giving Muhammad rest periods.

Riddick would not clinch half as often. He would fight! This would work to Joe's advantage. It's a really short list of heavyweights (both big and small) who could survive (much less beat) Joe Frazier in a phone booth fight.

Whether Riddick tries to box with the jab or slug it out, Joe would eventually get him. Those body punches man.

The fight gets stopped in the later rounds with a battered Riddick struggling to continue.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Entaowed
You are most welcome Evolution.  You definitely are a valuable, first hand source of information on top-flight heavyweights.  
I think many guys are deluded about how difficult it would be to even spar with them.
Even if they/we were their size, you gotta be very good-& fit-to be able to even stay upright for any period of time!

You must be right about both of those Ali fights.  Clinching is a matter of degrees, but the grabbong & even pulling behind the neck was an advantage that Ali never should have been permitted.

As much as I love Ali, it was indefensible favoritism.  
I might have to watch Manilla again, I did not think he pulled nearly as much there.

'60s Ali was fast enough to need to do that, though a great swarmer would still inflict punishment.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

It's Dale
Entaowed wrote
I might have to watch Manilla again, I did not think he pulled nearly as much there.
The referee was a mixed bag in Manilla. He allowed Ali to hold long enough to break Joe's rhythm, but he broke it up soon after. He never deducted points. He should have.

As for this fight, Bowe was a hard hitter with a great jab. He would knock out Joe before Joe starts smokin. I don't think Joe would ever get in the fight. Lennox would beat him the same way. You have to unleash that power early with Joe.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

GatorPurify
It's Dale wrote
Entaowed wrote
I might have to watch Manilla again, I did not think he pulled nearly as much there.
The referee was a mixed bag in Manilla. He allowed Ali to hold long enough to break Joe's rhythm, but he broke it up soon after. He never deducted points. He should have.

As for this fight, Bowe was a hard hitter with a great jab. He would knock out Joe before Joe starts smokin. I don't think Joe would ever get in the fight. Lennox would beat him the same way. You have to unleash that power early with Joe.
Exactly. That makes me mad. I love Ali but Ali should of had point taken Ali. Ali would of dropped had the referee not cheated. In the end Ali suffered for it. Ferdie Pacheco stated that after Manilla Ali never passed a physical to fight again.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Phantom Punch
I have to agree with the majority. Smokin' Joe was all business in there. Riddick was a slacker. Chances are that Riddick would get his butt whipped bad.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Duggerman
Administrator
I go back and forth on this all the time. Riddick could bomb Joe outta there early if he really wanted to. The entire fight really depends on Riddick’s mindset. Lazy Bowe gets killed, but a focused Bowe who listens to Eddie Futch would put a stop to Joe before he starts Smokin.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Will69
I go back to my mantra of size matters, if the bigger guy has top skills as well. Now, I know Bowe is not considered an ATG, but we're always talking peak vs peak. Bowe is even bigger than Foreman, and although he may not punch as hard as a prime George, he would do well enough on the inside to eventually stop Joe. I agree, that Bowe would have to listen to Futch and execute on this deliberate strategy for it to work. Even with this strategy, there is the possibility it could go either way.
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Re: Riddick Bowe v. Joe Frazier

Malik Wright
Some of y’all trippin. We know Joe was a brave tough son of a you said it, but Bowe was too big. And good. Plus Joe’s hook didn’t have the same impact on the real big dudes. It was a non factor against Foreman in two fights, and Ali and Buster Mathis had to be broken down and wore out. In the meantime little SOBs like Bob Foster and Jimmy Ellis got paralyzed by Joe’s power.

This proves to me that Joe would be an excellent cruiserweight. There’d be no big Alis and Foreman types to frustrate and beat him.

Suck on that rookies.
Malik El Debarge Wright