The Rumble in the jungle

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The Rumble in the jungle

Shogun of Harlem
muhammad ali george foreman photo: Muhammad Ali vs. George Foreman BoxingMuhammadAlivsGeorgeForeman-13.jpg

What is myth and what is reality? Did Dundee loosen the ropes? Was Foreman drugged or put under a voodoo curse? And, here is another question I have--why is it that Ali took body punches all night from Foreman but was hurt by Joe Frazier's body punches? I know Frazier can bang but he can't hit as hard as George.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Entaowed
This post was updated on .
For whatever reason, Foreman had an off night.  Part of it must have been being psyched out a bit by all the Africans against him/"Ali Bumbayai" shouts.  And while I believe Ali said he was out on his feet a couple of times, the difference was to a small degree that Foreman lacked his usual steam that night.  But even so, he likely was hitting harder than Frazier.  But Ali could cover up more effectively with his rope a dope against Foreman that Frazier & his left hooks.  He absorbed most punishment on his arms & shoulders.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

precious
In reply to this post by Shogun of Harlem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=2CrYBhFREtw
Conspiracy Theory: Was The Rumble in the Jungle Fixed?

Nice thread shogun. You may be interested in the article I found on this very subject (link above) . It covers most of the questions you posed from the loose ropes, the water & Zach Claytons officiating so readers can draw their own conclusions. I do believe the ropes where loose but who loosened them, did dundee ever admit this?. The count also seemed fast & Foreman appeared to be up at 8 or 9, but it appeared to me Foreman had accepted his loss with no hint of complaint when heading back to his corner. Foreman gambled all on an early knockout but underestimated Ali's fitness & ability to absorb punishment. Ironically Joe frazier was in commentary & said "Foreman was fighting foolishly & had a feeling he wasn't gonna make it". He was right Foreman simply ran out of gas punched himself out & despite the disputed count I think was finished anyway. I believe Foreman felt everything had conspired to beat him that night in Zaire, Ali was an inspired man with a game plan. It was great that redemption came at the expense of Moorer nearly 20 years later with Dundee in his corner & the same shorts he wore in Zaire, what a story.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Entaowed
You do not need a conspiracxy to account for his showing.  Funny how the Big Bad Monster was defanged & dethroned by the same Ali 10 years apart, & he took both favored fighters apart mentally & strategically.

But your link was something else...Hitchens and Walsh Argue About Hillary Clinton on Hardball.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Shogun of Harlem
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
For whatever reason, Foreman had an off night.  Part of it must have been being psyched out a bit by all the Africans against him/"Ali Bumbayai" shouts.  And while I believe Ali said he was out on his feet a couple of times, the difference was to a small degree that Foreman lacked his usual steam that night.  But even so, he likely was hitting harder than Frazier.  But Ali could cover up more effectively with his rope a dope against Foreman that Frazier & his left hooks.  He absorbed most punishment on his arms & shoulders.
He was lacking his usual steam? I thought he looked fine, he just tired out. In your opinion what was "off" about George that night? To me he had his same power and killer instinct but simply tired out late in the fight.

Good point also about the rope a dope. But Ali tried the rope a dope on Frazier in the first and third fights and it never worked on Joe. Joe's body rallies hurt Ali anyway but Ali was fine with George wailing on him. I find that interesting.

@Precious, I'm checking out your link right now.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

precious
Shogun I seemed to have cocked up with the link, here it is
http://ringsidereport.com/?p=15944
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

precious
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Sorry I seemed to have cocked up with the link, it probably covers stuff you already know but its still an interesting read
http://ringsidereport.com/?p=15944
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Evolution
George told me that something seemed "off" in Zaire. But he was very confident of beating Ali and gave it his all. He says he's proud to be a part of Ali's legacy. Funny, if you ask Larry Holmes about any of his losses he might curse you out. Ask George and he'll smile and joke with you about it.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Shogun of Harlem
In reply to this post by precious
precious wrote
Shogun I seemed to have cocked up with the link, here it is
http://ringsidereport.com/?p=15944
I enjoyed both your links! The Hilary Clinton debate was entertaining.
Who else thinks she'd be a great fight manager? You'd become a champ with a Clinton in your corner.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Zorro
In reply to this post by Shogun of Harlem
Shogun of Harlem wrote

He was lacking his usual steam? I thought he looked fine, he just tired out. In your opinion what was "off" about George that night? To me he had his same power and killer instinct but simply tired out late in the fight.

Good point also about the rope a dope. But Ali tried the rope a dope on Frazier in the first and third fights and it never worked on Joe. Joe's body rallies hurt Ali anyway but Ali was fine with George wailing on him. I find that interesting.
George was at his peak but succumbed to the Ali genius. Everyone I knew was predicting a quick Foreman blowout. Even I, a hairy teenager at that time, didn't think Muhammad had a chance especially considering his losses to Frazier and Norton, lack of speed and the fact that George was an absolute monster who easily KO'd the men to beat Ali.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Entaowed
I did not see quite the same energy & power that night.  But mainly, I think that Joe's quicker hands enabled him to land many more body shots, such as around the kidneys.  Foreman could hit harder, but many more blows were absorbed by his arms & shoulders.  Still Ali needed all his resources to withstand the assault-like with Frazier, later said he was out on his feat at one point.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

GatorPurify
I have read that Angelo loosed the ropes to get an advantage. They admitted to it years later; similar to the Henry Cooper (cut gloves) fight.

At this time Foreman's stamina was never really that good. But most boxers couldn't last long enough to find out. Ali brilliantly used that to his advantage. If you look most of Foreman's body blows were absorbed by Ali's arms, and were minimized by him leaning back. I think that's why the punches weren't as effective as they should of been.

Now Smokin Joe had almost endless stamina. He was the best body puncher of all times ( in my opinion). Even when opponents tried to cover up he found his way to the body. His body punches almost never missed the target, and were punishing. That's why his body shots to Ali did more damage. Ali tried the rope a dope on Frazier but it didn't work; Frazier made sure his body blows landed. Ali using that strategy almost got him knocked out in the "Fight of The Century" in the 11th round.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Entaowed
There was an interview posted here where Dundee denied loosening the ropes.  Though others do not believe him.

Frazier tired occasionally late in fights, despite excellent endurance whch you would expect from any human moving as much & punching as ferociously as he did.  Rocky moved less & slower, thus I never saw him tire.  But I believe Frazier was better.

Opinions differ about whether much of Frazier's movement was wasted energy or not.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Left Hook From Hell...
In reply to this post by GatorPurify
GatorPurify wrote
I have read that Angelo loosed the ropes to get an advantage. They admitted to it years later; similar to the Henry Cooper (cut gloves) fight.
Where did you read that? I'm curious.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Left Hook From Hell...
In reply to this post by Zorro
Zorro wrote

George was at his peak but succumbed to the Ali genius.
That's something I noticed...Liston and Foreman were both unfairly ridiculed for their losses to Ali. If they beat him how would they fare in ATG rankings?
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Rosco
Left Hook From Hell... wrote
Zorro wrote

George was at his peak but succumbed to the Ali genius.
That's something I noticed...Liston and Foreman were both unfairly ridiculed for their losses to Ali. If they beat him how would they fare in ATG rankings?
They would both be top three or four along with Louis and Marciano. Bet on it.

Ali knocking out Foreman is what sealed his place in history as the G.O.A.T.

EDIT: It still bothers me that George was on his feet at the count of nine but the fight was stopped anyway.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

redfeng007
More like a Technical Knockout.

George ran out of gas.

Ali will have finished George in the later round.

Referee did the right thing.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Shogun of Harlem
Part of me feels that if George had fought smarter he could have won. He should have went in with a strategy instead of coming out there just to crush the man.

If i was in Foremans corner,i would have told him to cut off the ring,get him to the ropes and when he covers up, bang him on his left shoulder to tire the muscles and take away his best weapon- the jab. When he opens up,uppercut to the chin..

I think he may have been more successful had he used a more concentrated body attack. He wouldnt have missed so much and probably drained Ali as much as he was draining himself.

Good idea, yes? After noticing also that each time Foreman fought someone with a plan in mind (Moorer, Frazier) he won.

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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Apollo
Banned User
Shogun of Harlem wrote
Part of me feels that if George had fought smarter he could have won. He should have went in with a strategy instead of coming out there just to crush the man.

If i was in Foremans corner,i would have told him to cut off the ring,get him to the ropes and when he covers up, bang him on his left shoulder to tire the muscles and take away his best weapon- the jab. When he opens up,uppercut to the chin..

I think he may have been more successful had he used a more concentrated body attack. He wouldnt have missed so much and probably drained Ali as much as he was draining himself.
I believe Ali would've been to smart regardless how George would've came in. I don't understand why so many people accept that George was all wrong for Joe Frazier stylistically, but they don't accept that Ali was all wrong for George.

I think George didn't have a snowball's chance in hell that morning in Africa. Just when you look at both mens technique, approach, style ...I don't think a strategy would've changed the outcome. If George would've paced himself more, he wouldn't have put as much pressure on Ali - which would result in Ali scoring even more punches.
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Re: The Rumble in the jungle

Entaowed
Love Ali, but he said he was twice out on his feet, & without the loose ropes, postponed fight, & hanging on & pulling Geourge down (very tiring), it would have been hard to win.  Even though Ali was great against the big slow bruisers, Foreman being more prime was an advantage.
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