Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

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Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

South Pacific
Given how he demolished everyone in his path during Ali's exile and knocked out most of his opponents, why didn't he have the fear factor of Liston, Tyson, etc. His knockouts were quite brutal.

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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Rosco
South Pacific wrote
why didn't he have the fear factor of Liston, Tyson, etc.
Foreman.

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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

South Pacific
No no. I mean BEFORE that fight during Joe's prime.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Duggerman
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In reply to this post by South Pacific
To me, it's because of his small size and his vulnerabilities. Frazier's only losses were to Ali and Foreman. With the exception of Bonavena and Bugner, he knocked out everyone he beat. So he had a fierce reputation.

But he never looked like an unbeatable force either. He was wobbled and hurt quite a bit. The same is true of Dempsey, Louis and Marciano. They each looked beatable at times.

Compare them to Liston, Foreman and Tyson, whom were never seriously hurt during their peak years and knocked out most of their prey very easy. They looked unbeatable and it looked like no one could stand a chance.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Rosco
In reply to this post by South Pacific
South Pacific wrote
No no. I mean BEFORE that fight during Joe's prime.
Was Joe not in his prime during the Foreman fight? The excuses need to stop. Joe was the man and even won the FOTC agsinst Muhammad Ali, yet when he lost to Foreman he was suddenly "washed up" or "damaged goods." Please. He wasn't even 30 years old yet when he fought George in Jamaica.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Phantom Punch
In reply to this post by South Pacific
Foreman beat Joe like a red headed stepchild on welfare. You would have thought Joe was a joke. You wouldn’t guess he was the dominant heavyweight champion he had been if you saw the Foreman fight. And even before that he did kayo Mathis and Ellis for example but lost plenty of rounds against them. Bonavena too. For all his tenacity, Joe sometimes  looked a punch or two from defeat or sometimes on the way to lose a decision
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Entaowed
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Duggerman
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^^He definitely lost some edge and wasn’t as sharp as he was in 1970-71. But he was still championship and/or top contender status.

Think about this; if there was no Foreman or Ali around, there’d be no one else around to beat him. Norton was the only top heavyweight around that Joe didn’t fight, and that was only because they were great friends and refused to fight each other. BUT they did spar often and Joe generally dominated, though Marvis told me that Norton dropped Joe once.

Shavers and Holmes would likely beat an aging Frazier since they came along in the late 70s. But Holmes did spar with Joe and told me Joe cracked his rib. This was during Holmes early days as a rising contender though.

Also one viewing of the Thrilla In Manilla shows that Frazier was still easily one of the most dangerous heavyweights around. Not many guys would have survived Manilla, and Joe was FAR from his best by then.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Evan Fields
It's probably because of his era. Joe hit his stride not too long after Sonny Liston began to decline and he preceded George Foreman. If neither of them exited maybe Joe would have installed more fear into the hearts of his prey. He ain't scary at all compared to those guys.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Bugs
In reply to this post by South Pacific
South Pacific wrote
Given how he demolished everyone in his path during Ali's exile and knocked out most of his opponents, why didn't he have the fear factor of Liston, Tyson, etc. His knockouts were quite brutal.

Joe was feared, especially after he whooped Ali in '71. Even Foreman was scared and said that his legs were shaking during the prefight staredown.

That left hook could knock a man into another time zone and had the entire heavyweight division on notice.
Eh....What's Up, Doc?
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Urban Legend
Think about it like this. If you were 6'6, would you fear Frazier? I doubt it.

Yeah Joe turned up the pressure alright with his tenacity and power hooks but if you noticed he struggled more with the big fellas. Foreman and Ali beat him, and he struggled to knock out Mathis, Bugner, Stander and some of the other big bruisers he fought.

Put Joe in their with Lennox Lewis or either Klitschko brother and he's getting knocked out. Remember I'm a Frazier fan but imo his being undersized was his biggest strength AND weakness all at once.

It was his strength because he could maneuver his way past a jab and get close and wreck guys. His style was designed to crush bigger men. BUT if you're too big or strong, Frazier's style plays right into your hands.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Big Red
Urban Legend wrote
Think about it like this. If you were 6'6, would you fear Frazier?
Damn straight I would! Ali was 6'3. When he went for an uppercut, Joe blasted him right on the jaw with one of the hardest left hooks ever and sent The Greatest falling flat on his back with his legs in the air.

When you punch down at a guy like Frazier, he slips the punch and then rams you in the body with that damn hook and then knocks your head off. And it never stops! I don't care if I was 6'8. I wouldn't wanna fight that guy. If George Foreman wasn't so powerful, he wouldn't have survived Frazier either.

If George was the same size but only had moderate or average heavyweight power, Frazier would have drowned him, especially in the mid-late rounds when Frazier gets stronger and George loses stamina.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Westmoreland
Well, Joe cleaned out the division in Ali's absence but was looked at as a substitute until the "real" champion Ali could fight again. It wasn't until after Joe beat Ali that he was viewed as legit. And he dropped the title to Foreman only two years and two title defenses later, so he never had the time to build a reputation as a scary monster of a heavyweight.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Zorro
Westmoreland wrote
Well, Joe cleaned out the division in Ali's absence but was looked at as a substitute until the "real" champion Ali could fight again. It wasn't until after Joe beat Ali that he was viewed as legit. And he dropped the title to Foreman only two years and two title defenses later, so he never had the time to build a reputation as a scary monster of a heavyweight.
You're right. I remember those days well. Joe definitely had a fierce reputation and he earned it but the real "people's champ" at the time was Muhammad Ali. Joe had to beat him to get that respect, and he did.
My father and I did not like Ali because Ali was so racist towards whites. I was a young boy and had never done anything to Ali. I liked him and found him exciting, but his whole "white men are blue-eyed devils" talk just plain hurt me. Ali hated me just because I was white? That's ignorant.

My father also didn't like his draft dodging, so neither of us were Ali fans and on Team Frazier.

Now don't get me wrong; Frazier was tough and feared, but not on the level of Liston or Tyson or Foreman.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Will69
I think Fraizer just didn't look like a thug. Tyson, Liston, Foreman all looked like thugs. Holyfield was one of the best HWs in the 90s and destroyed a lot of boxers, but I got a feeling he wasn't feared as well. Why? Holyfield, like Fraizer, looked like a nice guy. As well, Fraizer was relatively small, so he needed more of a thug persona to compensate for that.

However, there are more factors than merely size and "thug-ness" that make someone scary. Dempsey and Rocky were feared despite being small guys. And although these guys weren't thugs (to my recollection), these guys looked like they wanted to tear you apart and pound you to the ground. Fraizer and Holyfield didn't.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Duggerman
Administrator
Will69 wrote
I think Fraizer just didn't look like a thug.  Tyson, Liston, Foreman all looked like thugs.  Holyfield was one of the best HWs in the 90s and destroyed a lot of boxers, but I got a feeling he wasn't feared as well.  Why?  Holyfield, like Fraizer, looked like a nice guy.  As well, Fraizer was relatively small, so he needed more of a thug persona to compensate for that.  

However, there are more factors than merely size and "thug-ness" that make someone scary.  Dempsey and Rocky were feared despite being small guys.  And although these guys weren't thugs (to my recollection), these guys looked like they wanted to tear you apart and pound you to the ground.  Fraizer and Holyfield didn't.
I dunno. Frazier could look real mean when he wanted to. You ever see his beer commercial from the early '70s? I am at work so I can't link it right now (our computers at work block youtube) but you can look it up for yourself, or I'll post it later.

But I see what you mean. Frazier and Holyfield were nice, soft spoken men. Holyfield definitely wasn't scary with all of his scripture and Jesus talk. But ironically, once Holyfield and Frazier laced up the gloves, it was all business.

I never heard that Rocky and Dempsey were scary. To me they resembled Frazier in that they were nice guys but real aggressive and brutal in the ring. I don't think Marciano or Dempsey sent fear waves through the entire division the way Tyson, Liston or Foreman did. Joe Louis, as great as he was, didn't give off a frightening vibe either.

I'll tell you a story...

James Bonecrusher Smith once said that he and his manager watched Tyson destroy Trevor Berbrick on TV. Just after Berbick was knocked out, James said his manager pointed at him and said ".....and you're fighting him next." And then a chill went through his body. True fear, man. This no doubt played at least part of James' pitiful performance against Tyson when they did fight months later.

But to be honest, Joe showed even more tenacity in the ring than young Tyson did. But his charisma wasn't even to get people to adore or fear him. This, and always him being in the shadow of Ali, no doubt played a factor in why Joe wasn't a feared heavyweight.

Remember also that Earnie Shavers is regarded as the hardest puncher of them all, but no one feared him. He just lacked that charisma that made you get personally invested in him.
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Re: Why wasn't Joe Frazier feared?

Leo the Lion
Duggerman wrote
Will69 wrote
I think Fraizer just didn't look like a thug.  Tyson, Liston, Foreman all looked like thugs.  Holyfield was one of the best HWs in the 90s and destroyed a lot of boxers, but I got a feeling he wasn't feared as well.  Why?  Holyfield, like Fraizer, looked like a nice guy.  As well, Fraizer was relatively small, so he needed more of a thug persona to compensate for that.  

However, there are more factors than merely size and "thug-ness" that make someone scary.  Dempsey and Rocky were feared despite being small guys.  And although these guys weren't thugs (to my recollection), these guys looked like they wanted to tear you apart and pound you to the ground.  Fraizer and Holyfield didn't.
I dunno. Frazier could look real mean when he wanted to. You ever see his beer commercial from the early '70s? I am at work so I can't link it right now (our computers at work block youtube) but you can look it up for yourself, or I'll post it later.

But I see what you mean. Frazier and Holyfield were nice, soft spoken men. Holyfield definitely wasn't scary with all of his scripture and Jesus talk. But ironically, once Holyfield and Frazier laced up the gloves, it was all business.

I never heard that Rocky and Dempsey were scary. To me they resembled Frazier in that they were nice guys but real aggressive and brutal in the ring. I don't think Marciano or Dempsey sent fear waves through the entire division the way Tyson, Liston or Foreman did. Joe Louis, as great as he was, didn't give off a frightening vibe either.

I'll tell you a story...

James Bonecrusher Smith once said that he and his manager watched Tyson destroy Trevor Berbrick on TV. Just after Berbick was knocked out, James said his manager pointed at him and said ".....and you're fighting him next." And then a chill went through his body. True fear, man. This no doubt played at least part of James' pitiful performance against Tyson when they did fight months later.

But to be honest, Joe showed even more tenacity in the ring than young Tyson did. But his charisma wasn't even to get people to adore or fear him. This, and always him being in the shadow of Ali, no doubt played a factor in why Joe wasn't a feared heavyweight.

Remember also that Earnie Shavers is regarded as the hardest puncher of them all, but no one feared him. He just lacked that charisma that made you get personally invested in him.
Duggerman wrote
Will69 wrote
I think Fraizer just didn't look like a thug.  Tyson, Liston, Foreman all looked like thugs.  Holyfield was one of the best HWs in the 90s and destroyed a lot of boxers, but I got a feeling he wasn't feared as well.  Why?  Holyfield, like Fraizer, looked like a nice guy.  As well, Fraizer was relatively small, so he needed more of a thug persona to compensate for that.  

However, there are more factors than merely size and "thug-ness" that make someone scary.  Dempsey and Rocky were feared despite being small guys.  And although these guys weren't thugs (to my recollection), these guys looked like they wanted to tear you apart and pound you to the ground.  Fraizer and Holyfield didn't.
I dunno. Frazier could look real mean when he wanted to. You ever see his beer commercial from the early '70s? I am at work so I can't link it right now (our computers at work block youtube) but you can look it up for yourself, or I'll post it later.

But I see what you mean. Frazier and Holyfield were nice, soft spoken men. Holyfield definitely wasn't scary with all of his scripture and Jesus talk. But ironically, once Holyfield and Frazier laced up the gloves, it was all business.

I never heard that Rocky and Dempsey were scary. To me they resembled Frazier in that they were nice guys but real aggressive and brutal in the ring. I don't think Marciano or Dempsey sent fear waves through the entire division the way Tyson, Liston or Foreman did. Joe Louis, as great as he was, didn't give off a frightening vibe either.

I'll tell you a story...

James Bonecrusher Smith once said that he and his manager watched Tyson destroy Trevor Berbrick on TV. Just after Berbick was knocked out, James said his manager pointed at him and said ".....and you're fighting him next." And then a chill went through his body. True fear, man. This no doubt played at least part of James' pitiful performance against Tyson when they did fight months later.

But to be honest, Joe showed even more tenacity in the ring than young Tyson did. But his charisma wasn't even to get people to adore or fear him. This, and always him being in the shadow of Ali, no doubt played a factor in why Joe wasn't a feared heavyweight.

Remember also that Earnie Shavers is regarded as the hardest puncher of them all, but no one feared him. He just lacked that charisma that made you get personally invested in him.
You hit the nail on the head brother.

Some guys are just like that. Anthony Joshua is an imposing man, but his personality and his face are kind... So he's not scary like Sonny Liston etc... I think it comes down to looks. I have a very aggressive style, and I'm a puncher, but I'm not as intimidating as many guys just because I don't have those features specifically in my face and personality. I look more like a golden boy whereas for a destroyer you need to look mean and serious, something I just can't pull off 😑😂
Leo Rothmann - Amateur Boxer 183lbs