Wladimir's losses

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Wladimir's losses

Duggerman
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I'm more focused on the knockout losses. Wlad was prone to getting KO'd before hooking up with Emanuel Steward. I've always said that it was Emanuel who improved Wlad's style and kept him on the winning trail. But these losses always made me concerned about Wlad's chin. Was he just inexperienced here? Not yet prime? Your thoughts..
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Urban Legend
I remember people used to say that the Klitschkos had no heart. I believed it at the time. It looked to me like Wlad was just as mentally defeated in those early knockouts as he was physically. And we saw Vitali quit against Byrd, but I understand that a rotator cuff tear is a terrible injury. Still, you can't see a rotator cuff injury. But we saw his bloody eye against Lennox and it gained a lot of respect for Vitali.

Manny Steward gave Wlad more defensive techniques and boosted his confidence. All of a sudden that fragile chin of Wlad's was much harder to hit.

Say Cheese!

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Re: Wladimir's losses

Friday The 13th...
I found an article that kind of relates to this topic. Lennox weighed in on Emanuel's impact on Wlad's style and career.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/feature-articles/31337-lennox-lewis-half-right-regarding-klitschko-steward-link
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Evolution
These days boxers are getting better as they get older. Wlad was a late bloomer, and with Emanuel tinkering with his style, he was almost unbeatable.

At his peak he was one of the best of all time and hid his chin pretty well. But a select amount of ATG sluggers would have a puncher's chance. But, he was sharp enough of a puncher to get them first if he wanted to.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Entaowed
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Evolution
Entaowed wrote
Really Evolution, you think Wlad became THAT good?  Only a very few ATG sluggers, not even boxers like Ali or a great swarmer, would have any realistic shot at beating him?


And would he have been that dominant, especially against other ATGs, if he was not permitted rules that often amounted to being Mr.  "Grab'em near  Clinch-ko"?
Hey man, I never said anything about Ali or swarmers. Why did you assume that I was saying these guys couldn't win? I don't see your logic, as I never mentioned Ali or swarmers at all. Of course Ali has a realistic shot at beating him. I would bet on Ali to beat him.

Wladimir was better than good. He was not the best of all time or anything. For example I pick his brother Vitali and Lennox Lewis to beat him. Larry Holmes beats him too. I'd also pick Evander to get a decision over him, maybe even score a knockdown.

Joe Louis would be able to close the gap and destroy Wlad.

Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano would get hurt trying to close the gap. Wlad was good enough of a boxer to neutralize their attacks, although these swarmers would have a much better chance against a young Wladimir.

I would pick Wlad to beat Sonny Liston too.

Wlad had the size, power and boxing skill to beat a lot of ATGs. Most opponents would be smaller and not talented enough to hit that chin

Also, Wlad didn't start clinching until the post-Emanuel Steward years. That was the beginning of his decline.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Rosco
^^That's why the Klitschkos are a mixed bag to me. Given their size advantage and focus, they wouldn't be easy for any ATGs. BUT look at their opposition. That counts a lot too. They were big fish in a small pond.

I say Wlad should be somewhere in the top 10-12. He certainly ranks higher than Willard and Carnera.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Entaowed
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Will69
Wlad, and his brother, at peak, were almost unbeatable.  That's a fact.  However, Wlad only fought 3 top fighters IMO.  David Haye, Ibragomov, and Povetkin.  I don't count who he fought as an old man or unproven opponents.  These top fighters were not ATGs, but they were the top of the decade, and had almost perfect records (for most of their careers).  -Povetkin was like some version of Tyson, in that he usually dominated all his opponents by a wide margin.  Now, Wlad destroyed him like he was a middle-weight.   Povetkin was one of the most dangerous boxers of the 2000s, and Wlad handled him easier than Lennox handled Tua.  Wlad's defence is excellent.  Very few people can even get to him.  I can see ATG sluggers really struggling to get at Wlad enough to seriously hurt him. Clinching is the modern way of fighting, and it is not illegal.  Fans don't like it, but that's a regular part of a lot boxers' strategy, like Mayweather.  So, I can easily see Wlad clinching against ATG sluggers and smothering them.

In my opinion, the only chance a boxer would realistically have of beating a Klitchko would be if he was a decent sized outside-boxer with and iron chin, incredible endurance, and lightening fast speed.  The sad truth that is becoming more and more apparent, no matter how much we want to deny it, is that little guys and even medium-sized guys are struggling more and more to compete against the big guys.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Duggerman
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In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
OK, you must have meant nearly unbeatable vs. his actual competition.  But when you said;
"At his peak he was one of the best of all time and hid his chin pretty well. But a select amount of ATG sluggers would have a puncher's chance. But, he was sharp enough of a puncher to get them first if he wanted to".

I thought you were implying that only the ATG sluggers would have a small chance.  Implying not the other two styles.  The wording led to ambiguity in intended meaning, & apparently I read it the wrong way, oops.
I mentioned Ali as a boxer-type that we both would pick to beat him.
The symmetry with Ali may be that Ali did not clicnh much before his comeback.
I did not realize the degree of difference in how often Wlad clinched during & after Manny-world.

So length is one of the reasons you would not pick those swarmers to get to Wlad before he hurt them?
You do not think Tyson could absorb the damage & also evade enough of it with his speed & footwork at his peak, if not often tied up?
Tyson always struggled with big men who used their height to full advantage or tied him up. Tyson had a hard time against Tucker and Green, for example. He won both fights convincingly but he struggled. Wladimir would be far worse for him. He had a good jab and could really crack with his straight right and left hook.

Tyson attacked in spurts and could be timed, plus he "agreed" to clinch. But if Tyson lands that uppercut or a fierce combination, Wlad is going down and not getting up.

Tyson was not aggressive enough. Once inside he stopped to reset and was open for clinches or counters. Joe Frazier, on the other hand, never gave you a break. He kept attacking.

If they fought Wlad, Tyson would get broken down over the course of the fight and maybe KO'd late, while Frazier would get stopped early before he could stop smokin.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Evolution
Duggerman wrote
Entaowed wrote
OK, you must have meant nearly unbeatable vs. his actual competition.  But when you said;
"At his peak he was one of the best of all time and hid his chin pretty well. But a select amount of ATG sluggers would have a puncher's chance. But, he was sharp enough of a puncher to get them first if he wanted to".

I thought you were implying that only the ATG sluggers would have a small chance.  Implying not the other two styles.  The wording led to ambiguity in intended meaning, & apparently I read it the wrong way, oops.
I mentioned Ali as a boxer-type that we both would pick to beat him.
The symmetry with Ali may be that Ali did not clicnh much before his comeback.
I did not realize the degree of difference in how often Wlad clinched during & after Manny-world.

So length is one of the reasons you would not pick those swarmers to get to Wlad before he hurt them?
You do not think Tyson could absorb the damage & also evade enough of it with his speed & footwork at his peak, if not often tied up?
Tyson always struggled with big men who used their height to full advantage or tied him up. Tyson had a hard time against Tucker and Green, for example. He won both fights convincingly but he struggled. Wladimir would be far worse for him. He had a good jab and could really crack with his straight right and left hook.

Tyson attacked in spurts and could be timed, plus he "agreed" to clinch. But if Tyson lands that uppercut or a fierce combination, Wlad is going down and not getting up.

Tyson was not aggressive enough. Once inside he stopped to reset and was open for clinches or counters. Joe Frazier, on the other hand, never gave you a break. He kept attacking.

If they fought Wlad, Tyson would get broken down over the course of the fight and maybe KO'd late, while Frazier would get stopped early before he could stop smokin.
AJ just summed it up real nicely.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Entaowed
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Duggerman
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IMO clinching should be a sin in boxing. If it wasn't allowed or done less frequently a lot of fights may have turned out differently.

Henry Awkinwande was actually DQ'd in his fight with Lewis by Mills Lane. How about that? In one year (1997) Mills Lane had to referee the infamous bite fight, the McCall breakdown and had to DQ a man for frequent clinches.

Three bizarre fights in one year. 😱
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Entaowed
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Alexander
Clinching should be banned I'd say.
I mean, it's bound to happen sometimes but it should not be part of a strategy to win.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Will69
I don't think banning is the answer.  You're dreaming if you think every fight will be like Tua-Ibeabuchi.  If clinching was banned, boxers would even get more defensive and keep a safer distance between them.  The ref should step in and breakup excessive clinching.  I will say, with the current top players, clinching is not out of control.  ie: see Joshua's and Wilder's fights.  Pretty decent action if you ask me.  I'm hoping this trend will continue and this generation will mix it up more than the last.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Alexander
Maybe not banning but strict limitations.
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Entaowed
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Alexander
Sweet!!! I got an Entaowed scolding!! SCORE!!! 🎈🥂🤗🍕

ENTAOWED FOREVER!!!!!
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Re: Wladimir's losses

Entaowed
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